Faultiy Pipe \"update\"

Jamie_6

I recieved this letter from the homeowner and would like to post it.

Jamie

Hi, Jamie,

I read most of the comments in response to your posting
on heatinghelp.com and one of them suggested that I chime
in. I don't have access, but I'll pass this along to you,
especially since one participant claimed that "You replaced
tubing that had nothing wrong with it." (You can post
parts of this if you wish.)

Yes, the hose we had was "entran 3." I downloaded and
read the class action description and claim form, which
apparently only covers "entran II." Mark Hunt said
"entran 3 never had a problem. Ever."

Trust me when I say that black sludge came out of these
hoses, and it smelled (stunk?) like rubber. It came out
everytime we tried to flush this stuff, which was about
three times in four years, and it just seemed to keep
coming. The water coming out of our heating system always
smelled like rubber. When the sludge was allowed to dry, it left a
fine black power, not unlike copier toner, but not quite
that fine. We flushed it because the sludge was blocking
the flow so much that we couldn't get heat in two of
the five loops. We thought that flushing it yearly
would solve the problem. You'll remember that we had
five separate valves to enable doing just that.

I mailed a little plastic bag of dried entran hose sludge
to the manufacturer's local rep (at his request), but
that got me exactly nowhere.

We did not connect the "entran 3" back to
the new boiler because we did not want sludge to accumulate
inside a brand new boiler. Since then, and until two weeks
ago, the entran hose just hung from the ceiling (floor)
as an inoperative orange decoration.

It is possible that even if this hose is not the defective
hose that is covered in the class action suit, its
maximum temperature rating may be incorrectly too high.
Remember that it was connected directly to
the supply side of the boiler, which normally supplies
water at 170-180F. Now, the hose is clearly marked
"Warrantied to 200F / 100PSI" and I know that neither our
old boiler nor our new one could generate 100PSI, and that
we never had the water up to 200F. So even if this hose
is not the "entran 2" that was manufactured defectively,
it clearly did not stand up to its rated maximum temp.
If it was not defective (which I doubt) then the higher than
suggested, but lower than warrantied temps, dissolved it.
In my opinion, that suggested a warranty replacement because
we were within the limits printed on the hose. But as I
said, trying to get them to honor the warranty would have
taken just too much effort, only to be rewarded with
more entran hose.

On the other hand, we are much better off, not to mention
delighted, at the quality of the replacement system installed
by you and your able assistants. It looks very professional
and we are looking forward to some warmth next winter. And
the following winter. And the one after that...

Jim

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Constantin

The only thing I can think of

as an engineer homeowner is scouring due to high water flow speeds. However, that's about as far a shot into the dark as it gets. Hopefully, it's not the policy of Entran III to self-destruct, otherwise there will be yet another lawsuit.

Unknown

sludge

Jamie,

I have seen this before and was told it was NOT a break down of the tube but a bateria growing in the heating system. I never pursued either theory but we have never seen in on treated systems.

wheels

Mike T., Swampeast MO

If bacteria that have developed (or been given) the ability to produce enzymes that digest hydrocarbons are making their way into the environment there's a LOT more than just tubing that is going to be failing.

Constantin

Hydrocarbons are not the problem...

In fact, several types of bacteria have been bred and spred specifically to treat oil and gasoline spills. They occur naturally, otherwise, there would be no reason to treat diesel with biocides, etc. Be that as it may, if a bacteria had been created to break down vulcanized rubber quickly (and in a non-oxygenated environment!), this would be bad news indeed.

Another thought that occured to me is regarding the use of an incompatible antifreeze or other chemical which may have caused the breakdown of the rubber.

Nron_9

boiler treatment

have you done a ph test to see if the system is corrosive , take a water sample to the local rep and ask him to test for any chemicals that can damage your system , chlorine is one to watch for on rubber hose Nron

Mike T., Swampeast MO

The professor specifically mentioned selectively breeding and/or engineering those bacteria to "eat" oil spills as a possible first step down a very bad street. Of course he's pretty well-known locally as an environmental "kook" and anti-war activist.

I'm not a green freak by any means, and believe that genetic engineering has the potential for great benefit. The one argument against genetic engineering that really bothers me is that of unintended consequences--we have to be exceedingly cautious when messing with the blueprint of life.

Chemistry is not my strong suit, but even though Entran is called "rubber" hose, I presumed that like most "rubber" today it is either purely synthetic or a mix of natural latex and synthetics. If it's completely (or even highly) natural I can't believe than anyone would even think of using it in a hydronic heating system. As appliance designer I'm sure you're aware that many replace the stock "rubber" hoses on washing machines as a matter of course...

In the last two big Mississippi river floods I've had to replace every toilet flapper and Fluidmaster ballcock in every home/business I maintain within a few months. Not certain why, but I guess it has something to do with the water treatment and it's effect on "rubber".

Constantin

Genetic Engineering is like a sword

It can cut both ways and should be handled carefully. In the case of a friend in Tiverton, RI, the local oil company had a large storage farm right off the coast. In order to mitigate the spills from years past as they decommissioned the site, I believe they introduced gas-eating bacteria into the soil. I could be wrong however.

I don't really fear applying large concentrations of locally-available bacteria... nature has a way of balancing those things out naturally. Furthermore, we'd still be enjoying things like insulin derived from pigs (and all the subsequent contaminations) were it not for truely genetically-engineered bacteria producing the stuff for us economically and safely.

Rubber and Synthetic rubber are very different things and react quite differently to various oils, gases, and fluids. For example, IIRC, unvulcanized rubber is very unhappy with hydrocarbons. Similarly, I'm sure that the various grades of rubber may have different reactivities with respect to Chlorine for example. After a flood, it would not surprise me if the local water system was flushed with huge amounts of Chlorine to get it clean... leading to massive failure of rubber components not resistant to it.

As for the rubber hoses that are shipped with washing machines, they make me laugh. They're good for about the time it takes you or me to go to TrueValue Hardware and order a proper set of stainless-lined hoses (the ones from the catalog, not the HomeDepot quality they have in the store). For me, it's funny to see $1,200 washers being shipped with something that can only be characterized as junk.

Scott25

sludge

Did you check to see if the sludge was magnetic? Just a simple question. Maybe it wasnt the rubber, but the "old boiler" deposited throughout the system. I agree that the system fluid should have been tested to see what was going on. To late for that now. :-)
Scott

hr

Throwing the baby out with the bathwater

From my experience the "smell" is not uncommon in many of the rubber systems. This does not necessarly mean the hose is disolving, however.

I have installed quite a bit of rubber tube, over the years, seen the failures, and problems. I too, have not seen a degradation problem with the E- 3 product.

There is only one way to know for sure what is going on in any wet system, and that is to have the fluid tested.

The answer will always be in the fluid! I suggest going to a lab outside the usual chain of product manufactures.

There are companies that specialize in testing of fluids and products that will have the ability to determine EXCATLY wath the sludge is/ was. After all it did come from this planet! I hope

To say the hose was going bad may not, in fact, be a correct diagonsis.

hot rod

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