twin oil tanks

archdog

not sure on proper installation of two oil tankssingle feed , single vent .have installed dual roth tanks but they are pretty self explanatory.any help would be appreciated.thanks.

kevin coppinger_4

Single feed & single vent is....

NOT the proper way to install two tanks...Two fills and a combined vent is an ok way to go....to do the cross over piping is only asking for trouble....kpc

Maine Ken

What trouble with crossover? I have dozens of twin tanks tied together w/ crossovers and haven't seen any problems. I have seen other crossover set ups that also have a two pipe system to the oil pump that have had big problems.

Unknown

Kevin , I believe

NFPA 31 says that 1 fill and 1 vent pipe , and a crossover connection for 2 tanks is OK .

What I do not like about the code is that they do not want swing joints on the crossover . We put them in always .

kevin coppinger_4

the cross over is code.....

but it IMO is still not a good practice....that first tank gets a lot of pressureas the 2nd tank is being filled...This subject comes up every one and a while .... and some of us dissagree as to this practice. I will never do the 2" cross over....it takes only a bit longer to do 1 extra fill. kpc

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David_5

Twin tanks

Two fills with a common vent line, each tank gets its own whistle is my vote. Common sense says the first tank is getting pressurized when the second is filling with crossover setup. I don't like pressurizing oil tanks.

David

Jed_2

Has anyone ever seen test data?

I'd like to see some kind of test data as to the actual pressurization on the first tank with 2" crossover. Does it exceed U.L. press. test limit, 5 lbs.?

Jed

steve_38

twining oil tanks

As an oil burner tech. I install oil tanks all the time
it's perfectly fine connect two tanks together...
It's not a big deal lol. with a little blue block and some lampwik you shouldn't have any leaks or problems.
the only thing i strongly recommend is to use 1/2" black pipe on the bottom of the tanks for better volume and better equalizing of the tanks. just come out from the bottom of both tanks with two 1/2" blk street elbows and two 1/2" by 3" blk nipps, two 1/2" IPS Ball Valves, two 1/2" blk street elbows and you'll need and 1/2" blk union to bring the 1/2" nipps into a 1/2" blk tee to join the lines together, and on the bull of the 1/2" tee you can use a 1/2"x3/8" blk bushing to get into the filter and I like to use the larger general filter or a Garber is good. and then on the outside of the filter run your 3/8 OD enviromental copper tubbing... ALSO make sure both tanks are pitch towards the valve side. lol and this might not help you with Roth Tanks because there are no tappings on the bottom of those tanks. i've installed Roth Tanks but only on a customers request, I really don't care for them. Reason why you can't flush sludge off the bottom of them.

Firedragon_4

It's in here, but just didn't have time

to find it this am, sorry.

http://www.steeltank.com/

BTW, although I teach NFPA31 all over the country and CMR4.00 in MA and twinning is allowed everywhere, I still don't like it either. It's my MA roots that did not allow this until 1995. I agree that swing joints make it better and you must remember that codes (Standards) are minimums, you can always exceed them unless you violate the intent of the code, FACT!

I've got a major presentation on Codes, CO and new technologies for the Annual Convention of the Fire Prevention Association of MA on Tuesday, we'll see how it plays out!

BTW, Roth & like'em tanks are made for top pickup and the idea is to leave the sludge at the bottom. Even with steel tanks in Europe top pickup is how it's done, FACT! Check out the Oventrop Pickup Kit, it's normal over there which is an oilheat market 5 times larger than ours, FACT!

Further, the sludge problem is a combination of fuel quality, sulphur and de bugs, good chemical treatments will prevent most of that as soon as everybody is burning ultra low-sulphur/bio fuel mixes. In the meantime, TREAT, TREAT, TREAT your oil.

Ken D.

Twin tanks

I have used single fill& vent with a cross over for years with no problems of any kind. It is allowed by local codes. I have always over sized the crossover pipe although it is not required. The practice has been approved by countles inspectors and architects, although some would rather have individuals as a personal preference. The option of single fill & vent or individuals is left up to the building owner or architect. Sometimes two fills/vents are not practical due to location or construction.

Ken_8

In our state, we cannot

"debate" code. The correct manner is attached for your scrutiny. We've been installing them that way for 20 years and never ever had a problem. But back then, I never knew about Murphy's Law either...

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kevin coppinger_4

I will sleep better....

with two fills....GOD help the poor sucker that has a tank rupture that he installed. kpc

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heatboy

Don't see how it could see pressures.......

more than the static weight of the fuel in a full tank, if the vent is working properly.

Since there is no real pressure on the system, why wouldn't soldered, well braced L copper be an adequate fill? I have always done steel pipe, but often wondered why copper couldn't be used just as successfully. Does the NFPA code allow copper?

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Jim Burke comfort zone

dual tanks



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Bill Nye

How ever you

decide to pipe the fill, I suggest using a 1/2" OD copper equalizer between the two tank outlets [after the tank valves of course]. Bend a loop in the tube to allow for settling. Use only one filter after you tee the tanks. I have seen one filter plug and the customer run out w/ 3/4 of tank left in one tank.

The tanks don't equalize as well with two filters or with 3/8 od. I have also seen a flare pull right off the end of the tube when the tanks settled because no swing joint or expansion looped was used. I have even seen check valves on the tank outlet, it will NEVER equalize like that.

I am going to put a pressure gauge on a 2 X 1/4 bushing and check the pressure on a twinned tank. I will check it during the fill. I will even ask the driver to let 'er rip for a minute.

Jim Burke comfort zone

dUAL OIL TANKS

I HAVE INSTALLED MANY DUAL TANKS AND NEVER HAD A PROBLEM .
I USE A 2" SINGLE FILL W/ A 2" VENT ALARM & a 2" cross over.
I also braze 2 3" Pc. of 1/2" tubing to the tank valves to keep lines up off bottom of the tank to help filter from being plugged from sludge .
Make sure your bottom cross over is made close to your tank valves and your on your way.
P.S Never pipe a tank in copper you are asking for trouble.
I have seen so called plumber use sch 40 as vents thats a no no .

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Bill Nye

Yeah But,

Jim , good idea, but, the concept is to pitch the tank toward the outlet and catch the crap in the filter. If the water and sludge do not collect in the tank , the tank will not rust out from the inside.

Firedragon_4

NFPA31 prohibits the use

of copper not for pressure reasons, but simply due to tensile strength and the solder joints in a fire. They have a 'white paper' outlining the resulting environmental damage due to tank spills from that shoddy work, FACT!

scrook_2

but...

Two tanks w/ two fills and two vents should also be treated no differant than one tank w/ one fill and one vent, hence an acceptable alternative. Two fills but the vents tee'd together should also be acceptable as the venting still meets the code requirement for the crossover case and the fill more than meets the requirement, and in fact also meets the single tank requirement.

scrook_2

brazed...

copper may be allowed, depending where you are, but silver 'soldering' 2" copper becomes absurd.

Meanwhile, God save us from the PVC piped hack jobs!

Firedragon_4

NFPA31 makes no provision for brazing

of copper lines, FACT! It's the copper itself that is not allowed.

MA and NFPA31 do allow for brazed solder joints on fuel lines from tank to burner, that's it.

[Deleted User]

With a calibrated gage

on twin 330's, 2" fill & crossover, 2" vent w/ 00209 Scully Ventalarm, @ 87 GPM pumping rate. One (1) PSI @ top of first tank when full & 2nd tank is filling. NFPA 31 allows up to 10 PSI @ bottom of tank during filling. We'll be doing that test on our next twin tank installation.

Ken_8

Not so.

Logic is not allowed in code issues. Either it conforms to code - or it doesn't.

Common sense is not an option.

Besides, I see more than a few problems with your suggested piping arrangement.

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Robert O'Connor_6

Thanks for that

Ron and let us know what you learn.

Do I understand correctly that you have yet to record the pressures?


Best regards,

Robert

ME

Jed_2

Thanks, Ron

FAscinating that so much fill pressure will produce so little at the top of the filled tank. Around here, guys are piping 1-1/2" fill & vent, and 2" crossover. I remember a controversy locally a few years back. The Chief Fire Inspector required 2" F&V on all tanks, when NFPA required 1-1/2. The discussion involved the capacity of the Scully vent alarm being the same whether 2" or 1-1/2". He rescinded the order.

Also, I spoke with Myles at Kerr today. They air pressurize their tanks to see what it will take to burst. He told me at 75-80lbs. they bust.

But, when it comes down to it; better safe than sorry. Pipe at least dual fill/one vent.

Jed

Firedragon_4

Don't agree, fact of the matter is

if we had an abundance of common sense and good engineering we wouldn't need codes, FACT!

Jed_2

What???? no Firomatic???? (NM)

> As an oil burner tech. I install oil tanks all

> the time it's perfectly fine connect two tanks

> together... It's not a big deal lol. with a

> little blue block and some lampwik you shouldn't

> have any leaks or problems. the only thing i

> strongly recommend is to use 1/2" black pipe on

> the bottom of the tanks for better volume and

> better equalizing of the tanks. just come out

> from the bottom of both tanks with two 1/2" blk

> street elbows and two 1/2" by 3" blk nipps, two

> 1/2" IPS Ball Valves, two 1/2" blk street elbows

> and you'll need and 1/2" blk union to bring the

> 1/2" nipps into a 1/2" blk tee to join the lines

> together, and on the bull of the 1/2" tee you can

> use a 1/2"x3/8" blk bushing to get into the

> filter and I like to use the larger general

> filter or a Garber is good. and then on the

> outside of the filter run your 3/8 OD

> enviromental copper tubbing... ALSO make sure

> both tanks are pitch towards the valve side. lol

> and this might not help you with Roth Tanks

> because there are no tappings on the bottom of

> those tanks. i've installed Roth Tanks but only

> on a customers request, I really don't care for

> them. Reason why you can't flush sludge off the

> bottom of them.

Jed_2

Yah! It's like

when a 1600 circ. is spec'd and a 0010 will do the job.

Jed

jim f

twin tanks

steve_38

JED

I do use firematic valves, but what i also like to use is an IPS ball valve... there's nothing wrong with adding ball valves on oil lines, sorry leaving them out... and by the way Semper Fi... tough guy...

Ed_13

Oil Tank Fill Pressure

Ron,

Thanks for that info. When you do the test and measure the pressure at the bottom, it would be interesting if you also put a gauge directly on the nozzle and test the static delivery pressure at the nozzle of the delivery truck.

It would be a "no flow" test, but it would indicate how much pressure the pump on the truck can generate. It would also give us an idea as to how much pressure would be exerted throughout the entire tank system, if the vent was completely blocked, (as can happen on smaller old vent pipes).

Regards
Ed Carey

Ed_13

Oil Tank Fill Pressure

Ron,

Thanks for that info. When you do the test and measure the pressure at the bottom, it would be interesting if you also put a gauge directly on the nozzle and test the static delivery pressure at the nozzle of the delivery truck.

It would be a "no flow" test, but it would indicate how much static pressure the pump on the truck can generate. It would also give us an idea as to how much pressure would be exerted throughout the entire tank system, if the vent was completely blocked, (as can happen on smaller old vent pipes).

Regards
Ed Carey

Jed_2

It read tougher than meant

Not being a Marine, that went over my head for a while.
Sometimes the blatant omission is the self evident given.

Regards

Jed

[Deleted User]

The reason I

listed the 00209 Scully Ventalarm is the opening through that piece is as close to a full 2" as I've found. Few of the other 2" connection ventalarms come close. Some are less than 1 1/4" @ the throat. The $16.00 more our customers pay for the good one allows me to sleep @ night. If you read the labels on many of the new tanks, you'll see that those folks have declared the reduced opening ventalarms Verboten!

ED. I'll think that test through. Let you know.

As for tank testing. When we did our original UL 142 tank test for certification, had to fill the tank w/ H20 & test @ 25#. Also had to weight down top of tank for crush test. Real interesting.

Rookie

I missed this thread

Next time before I asked I'll just search first.Great information.