NCI Seminar with Jim Davis

Mark Hunt

sit in on one of his classes Jim?

Mark H

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Unknown

Combustion and CO Seminar

I've been on the run for most of the past three weeks, but managed to take in Jim Davis' seminar in Burlington, MA on Tuesday and Wednesday. I must say that I was certainly enlightened with what I heard and saw during those two days. I frequently visit jobsites with our representatives where things sometimes just aren't making sense. These invisible issues are now fairly clear in my mind now that Jim managed to bring them to life. I would recommend that more people attend these seminars. I thoroughly enjoyed myself, got to spend a couple of days on the other side of the podium, met even more Wallies and learned a ton of things about things that I can't see! Good job Jim!

Glenn Stanton

Burnham Hydronics

Mark Hunt

Thanks for the shirt Glenn! (nm)

Mark H

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Mad Dog

That's one down Jim..............................

timmie's next............Glad you enjoyed it Glenn. Mad Dog

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jim sokolovic

Please feel free to elaborate, Glenn...

Do you have a revised stand on the issues discussed with Jim Davis previously in this forum?

What is the importance of setting the boiler to the manufacturer's specified input rate, to which all testing and certification work has been done at?

What is the importance in not altering the manufacturer's design of flue product conducting parts?

Is there any conflict?

Will Burnam be revising it's instruction manuals and training concepts, based on your enlightenment?

Many past discussions on these subjects were ended with "We will see how certain persons feel about this after they have taken the class" - yet we haven't been priveleged with any details!

Thanks for any response to these "delicate" subjects :^)

Unknown

Jim

Somehow I expected to witness two days of wild ideas about altering factory set criteria based on the discussions I have seen here and on other web sites. This is not neccessarily the case though. Other than possibly removing the draft hood and replacing it with a properly set dual action barometric and thermal switch, I neither saw nor heard anything contrary to any of our beliefs. Even on this issue, we accept this as a practice in the case of commercial equipment with poorly drafting chimneys and as Jim stated, only as a last resort.

What I did experience were many, many thought provoking "what if" scenarios covering various real life conditions that I have already witnessed in the field, with working examples utilizing O2, system temperatures, flue temperatures, CO2 and of course CO amounts. I now have the ability to more easily determine and possibly pinpoint the exact cause of the problem, even though it is invisible to the naked eye.

The majority of technicians are not trained and equipped to test for CO and therefore can't easily pinpoint a problematic situation such as an oil-fired boiler producing rising levels of CO simply due to flame impingement. In answer to your questions:

1.) There was nothing discussed in reference to changing factory established input rates with the exception of possibly increasing manifold pressures to establish the listed input in situations with possible derated gas. In the case of oil, it was advised to stay with factory high firing rates for proper thermal efficiencies.


2.) I saw or heard nothing in conflict with our stances on product setup or installation.


3.) Will we alter our manuals? It is my opinion that I would like to see some reference to field testing for CO in addition to all of the criteria we already reference for proper flame quality. It can be a very delicate issue and has to be addressed properly. I will be speaking to our Director of Engineering regarding this and the proper way of handling it. There are always the possibilities of adverse field conditions that may cause situations such as rising CO levels that are completely out of our control as a manufacturer. These issues should be addressed!

I would suggest taking in one of Jim's seminars. You don't neccessarily have to sit there and agree with everything he says, but at the very least he will get you thinking about things you never thought about before. Be prepared do defend your stance though. He is prepared and has working examples, publications, documents and drawings to back up every single thing he discusses. Hope this helps.

Glenn

Murph'_5

Glenn.....

You are truly a class act, enuff said!!



Murph'

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Darin Cook

Thank You Glenn!!!!!

The synopsis of Jim's class is 100% on the money. What Jim teaches in his class is not opinion it is FACT. What Jim provides to you in class is proof. Look at the national fuel code book and you will see that a barometric draft damper is fully compliant with code on a gas appliance. Some people choose to wear their ignorance as a badge. That is their choice. They refute what Jim Davis has to say just for the sake of the fight. If you have worked in this trade for 20, 30 years and can still sit there and fight about if you should be using a digital combustion analyzer or that a draft hood separates the appliance from the chimney, RETIRE, you're time has passed.
You simply are not doing the good that you should be. Quite frankly everyone who has posted on this site after attending Jim's class has posted nothing but positive feedback. The only one's who are still talking smak are the one's who have NOT attended. Talk to Jim about how he even got involved with this, he got tired of the bull he was seeing out there and decided to get this knowledge out there (very,very condensed explanation). So if Glenn can come back from this course and talk forthright about the information aquired there, you can also assume that he would not do this if there were a liability to be incurred by BURNHAM. Please go to this course. In the end it will not cost you money, it will make you money and you will save LIVES. So get out there and test!!!!!!!

Unknown

Darin

You are correct in most of your comments regarding CO issues. I chose to attend this seminar to first off learn something about this topic and second to clarify in my mind some of the twisted comments I have been hearing and reading regarding this topic. This is something that I chose to do and not something I was required to do. I get up in front of thousands of contractors and technicians every year discussing boiler installation methods, troubleshooting and various theory and felt it neccessary to expand my horizons a bit.

I do, however, have to clear the air a bit in that Burnham and all the other manufacturers of heating equipment DO have to abide by Certification and Testing processes and that all of our eqipment far exceeds the minimum standards for CO tests in the environment that the equipment is tested in. There seems to be an overly blown out of proportion concern that natural vent appliances are not safe. This is truly NOT the case and there are scores of thousands of these installed annually where there are absolutely no problems with either venting or CO issues. As Jim stated in his seminar, it is important to assume nothing and to test for rising or unstable CO levels in ALL appliances including ovens. If there is an instance where this may occur, then it is important to address the issue causing it, whether it be combustion air, venting or whatever. There is no such thing as a perfect installation condition, as there are various field issues that can and do cause CO production.

From a manufacturing standpoint, it is important to clarify that ALL of our products are safe, all be it natural or induced draft, provided that proper installation, venting, fuel source and combustion air methods are practiced. The Certification processes we abide by are both costly and thorough to ensure that this is the case. Being able to recognize when things go haywire in the field is extremely important and for that aspect, Jim does a remarkable job. Thanks for your comments and keep in mind.......NEVER STOP LEARNING!

Glenn Stanton

Mark Eatherton1

Glenn...

Glad to see one of Americas best boiler companies attending this seminar. I wish and hope they ALL do. Everyone can learn something.

Your atmospherics and everyone else's undergo rigorous laboratory certifications. The problems arise when the equipment is taken out of the lab and put into the real world scenarios. Just when you think you've seen every possible scenario, you find out you don't know squat...

It is virtually impossible for the labs to identify and recreate every scenario they will see in the field, and hence it becomes necessary for the eyes and ears in the field to be able to identify these situations and correct them before someone dies, or worse, becomes maimed for life.

I does my heart good to see my favorite American cast iron boiler company doing something to promote education in the field of CO poisoning.

Keep up the good work.

To anyone even considering attending the Guru of Partially Burnt BTU's seminar, JUMP on the opportunity. I did, and I don't regret it, and neither will you.

ME

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Jim Davis

Thanks Glenn

Glenn it was a pleasure to meet you and your participation in class added to its value and I appreciate your comments. You obviously care about your dealers regardless of who you work for, as I care for them regardless of what they sell. Having sold Burnham for 16 years I can say I never had a problem, great piece of equipment.
Manufacturers are required to conform to many standards and have to pass rigid certified testing under certain conditions. But they certainly have no control over the total installation or environment that the equipment is installed. Many pieces of equipment can be mishandled before they get to the job and in some cases assembly errors can go undetected. It is the job of the installing contractor or service tech to determine exactly how things function in the field. The first requirement is to have guidelines to assess any problems(safety or efficiency). Now options are needed to correct these issues and means to verify these corrections. As I expressed in class, if only one time out of a thousand any recommendation fails, then it is never a recommendation at all. I just hope we police our own industry before the government steps in a screws it up. I look forward to talking to you in the future and hearing about any successes you may encounter.

Mark Hunt

Never stop learning!


What a mouth full that is!

Dedicate a fraction of time and gain a lifetime of knowledge.

Wisdom is applied knowledge.

In my lifetime I will see this issue dealt with properly.

I have never felt so strongly about any other issue.

The Burnham company has proved once again that they are a REAL company dedicated to the industry and the customer.

I know that there are more out there. Help me with this.

I know of a couple of one year old twin boys that became Angels that are missed dearly by their parents. They got their wings a couple weeks before they celebrated their first Christmas. They are in my heart. I cannot tell this story without choking up.

We can make a difference.

Mark H

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GW

CO

Jim,

It's nice to see some positive comments for once.

My guys enjoyed the class. Even though Randy was a little nervous that he was "learning TOO much...", he'll be fine once I get him his own tester. Carlos is more into the sales process, once he gets comfortable, he'll be making money with this stuff and keeping people healthy.

I love America...and being the best I can be.

Gary

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Mad Dog

Absolutely, at least give it a try to see for yourself

In college, I went to hear The Eastern Farm Worker's (Communist Worker's party) speak on campus, just to find out what they were up to. They weren't going to change the way I felt about things, but I needed to see for myself, you know. You are obviously very well-versed and educated, Jim, and I believe it would only enhance your already well-rounded perspective. Maybe you could drag Timmie with ya....hee hee. With Great Respect to Both, Mad Dog

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jim sokolovic

Thank you, Glenn...

you are always very open and a true professional. Some subjects are very difficult for those who work for an appliance manufacturer to discuss, and I appreciate your position.

I also appreciate the rest of the people who hang here from not jumping on me for bringing this up again. Rational discussion is the only way to get to a better understanding and perhaps, agreement. I realize that attending Jim Davis' classes is the best way to absorb his offerings - I was particularly interested in hearing what someone from the manufacturer's "side" impressions were.

I hope that more people who work for manufacturers will start to contribute to future discussions here, particularly on combustion issues (and it doesn't have to be just about "their" products). The experience of the installer, trainer, and manufacturer can be combined for the benefit of this industry and it's customers.