P/S is it OK?

Steve_45

Guys, based on the information I've gathered and
help and suggestions from the wall, this is my
understanding and final layout of the system I
will install. Any suggestions on improvement
or any errors seen will be greatly appreciated.
(see Attachment)
Thanks,
Steve

Robert O'Connor_7

P/S??

Looks like quite a bit of extra pipe you got there. Depending on the aplication you could eliminate alot of that (in my opinion) extra pipe and tees. Couldn't you just pipe from the supply back to the return, install a bypass or valving, then install your secondary S/R tees off of that. Keep it simple, P/S's not hard...Robert O'Connor/NJ

Dave_22

A-OK...

Looks OK to me! If you need all zones at the same temp, then there is nothing wrong with using the crossover bridges you have. Depending on your flows, and what you have going on out in the zones- you could also just use 1 set of closely spaced Tee's with a supply and return manifold on that... See pic for what I mean.

Justin Gavin

Or try 1 pipe

Did you do a heat loss? What type of boiler?

Kind of a big boiler unless your house is rather large.

If you are sizing the boiler for your indirect maybe you should consider 2 smaller boilers with a 2 stage controller.

Also depending on what you are heating you might be able to save some pipe by using a couple of manifolds off of one close set T. Check out Earth Lee under manufacturers on this site.

But if you have the time and money there's no shame in "tricking" out your system. It would look pretty kick A@@.

Just consider using 2 boilers and it would really look nice.

Good Luck,

Justin

Dan Peel

Purging

Your secondary layout will defy air purging unless you move the return ball (isolation) valve to between the drain valve and the primary crossover. Enjoy....Dan

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Dan Peel

and...

The system bypass you form with the open 1 1/4" drawn at the bottom will need full throttling capability. The water will just circle around the outside 1 1/4" unless some pressure differential can be achieved across your rungs. Enjoy....Dan

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leo g_13

just one thing

, i would run 1" in/out of the domestic hot water maker, unless the type you're using suggests 3/4".

leo g

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Dan Peel

good catch, plus

The two primary circs will need flow checks. Dan

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Steve_45

Dan here ?

Steve_45

Leo I just assumed it would be fine with 3/4.
40 gallon Amtrol. What will the 1 inch do
for Leo?

Steve_45

Robert,
I really want the same temp water to each zone.
This house is old, late 1800 and has no insulation
in the upstairs appartment. Downstairs is being
completely gutted so it will be insulated. The
baseboard fin was poorly layed out and needs all
the help it can get upstairs. A heat loss was done
and a P/S with crossover was thought to be the best
way to deliver the needed BTU's

Dan Peel

That's better

That looks much better Steve.
The red balancing valves, from a design standpoimt, are still necessary. In practice the isolation valves in the same rung can be used for the proportional flow control needed rung by rung.
Personally, for a ladder style design I would eliminate one of the valves in each crosser.
Enjoy.....Dan

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Dan Peel

delivery

1" will carry signifcantly more flow to and from the indirect. Really short runs and small ported tanks you won't see much difference. String things out a few feet and it can make a significant difference in your recovery rate. Dan

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Steve_45

> That looks much better Steve. The red balancing

> valves, from a design standpoimt, are still

> necessary. In practice the isolation valves in

> the same rung can be used for the proportional

> flow control needed rung by rung. Personally,

> for a ladder style design I would eliminate one

> of the valves in each

> crosser. Enjoy.....Dan

>

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> 174&Step=30"_To Learn More About This

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Steve_45

Updated drawing..

Dan I updated the drawing based on some of your suggestions.
What do you think. Also the total distance, going to, and
coming from the DHW heater is no more then 20 feet total.
Less then 10 each way

Steve_45

Fixed update

Sorry forgot to move the valves to
the other side of the purge valves.
I hope it's right now...

Dan Peel

Yes

Works for me. Dan

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Steve_45

Thanks Dan...

Your suggestions and corrections are Greatly Appreciated

Waylon Lowery

Save yourself

some trouble and eliminate the 1-1/4" bypass line completely. It is not necessary. You want the flows to go across your 3/4" rungs not your bypass.
Waylon

Kal Row

my two cents

attached e1.jpg - i added notes/ideas to your diagram

though unless you have radiant manifolds at the ends of each zone - this system is overkill, better off with primary/vari-inection/secondary with zone-valves and a tekmar 363 controlling it – the electronics will do more for you than all the valves and pumps

i did one recently and it solved all the customer's problems especially the heat migration ones

think, when you put it all together, - cooler water drops like a rock and displaces warmer water – (even standing still in a single pipe!!!) think of where the heat is going by itself and stop it, with spring-checks, heat-traps or zone-valves - lots of "professionals" get this wrong!!! And it’s a huge efficiency killer – you direct the heat, don’t let the heat direct you!!!

Kal Row

my two cents

attached e1.jpg - i added notes/ideas to your diagram

though, unless you have radiant manifolds at the ends of each zone - this system is overkill, better off with primary/vari-inection/secondary with zone-valves and a tekmar 363 controlling it – the electronics will do more for you than all the valves and pumps

i did one recently and it solved all the customer's problems especially the heat migration ones

when you put it all together, think, - cooler water drops like a rock and displaces warmer water – (even standing still in a single pipe!!!) think of where the heat is going by itself and stop it, with spring-checks, heat-traps or zone-valves - lots of "professionals" get this wrong!!! And it’s a huge efficiency killer – you direct the heat, don’t let the heat direct you!!!

heatboy

Flow & Head.

Steve,

If I remember correctly, the Amtrol 40 gallon tank needs 10 GPM through the HX to attain the rated recovery. That GPM will give you about 11' of head to overcome. You will need 1" copper and depending on how much S&R piping, a 007 may not be, and probably won't be, adequate. I have yet to see one of these piped correctly in all my years. "Hey, it's got 3/4" tappings." is the first thing they say.

hb

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Kal Row

you can use the new - B&G Check-Trol

isolation flanges with built in spring-check
perhaps a better way to go
http://www.bellgossett.com/BGNewLiterature.htm
http://fhaspapp.ittind.com/literature/files/43.pdf

Kal Row

your ab-sa-bluma-lutly right HB

thats another reason one of the notes in the e1.jpg, I posted in ‘my two cents”, tells him to cut out the heating circ when the DHW aquastat calls - cause the amtrol needs all it can get – and the Grundfos 15-58’s I recommended at the top speed is adequate to the task

he can of course run it at a much higher temp and thermostatically mix it down on the hot water outlet side - this will give him more capacity and flexibility with prioritization – but then, you get standing heat loss waste – he might be better off with a smaller holding tank and a larger flat plate heat-ex – cant really make all these choices without being on the job

Steve_45

Kal,

WOW, you just blew me away with your response and added
notes to my drawing. I can't thank you enough for taking the time to add your "2 cents" it's worth millions to me.
You guys here, are with question, top shelf.

Believe it or not those B&G fitting you suggested were my
first choice, however the supply houses didn't have them.
(I tried three different places) So I went with IFC 007 Tacos instead. I had asked a question about NOT running
the primary circulator when the DHW heater circulator was
running. I took a suggestion to use an ice cube relay
controlled by the Zone 6 relay on my Taco SR 506-EXP.(see
attachment) Some questions Kal:
1) Are you saying to use a relay that comes with the Amtrol already and just tap off of it?
2) Am I mistaken or won't the B&G flow controls(Straight/Angle) take care off the backwards migration
of the heat in each loop? My thinking was these little reds
are better then and would do the same job as the spring checks.
3) Your suggesting there is no need to have the last 1 1/4 bridge, is there any advantages to having it or is it just a
waste?
4) Last question, Bad enough HB already knows my dumb question before I even asked it, but now I have to show my
stupity. Do I just use 1 inch to the DHW heater and use a
reducer to 3/4 inch just before the tank or do I have to
monkey with the tank?

Steve_45

Heatboy,

> Steve,

>

> If I remember correctly, the Amtrol 40

> gallon tank needs 10 GPM through the HX to attain

> the rated recovery. That GPM will give you about

> 11' of head to overcome. You will need 1" copper

> and depending on how much S&R piping, a 007 may

> not be, and probably won't be, adequate. I have

> yet to see one of these piped correctly in all my

> years. "Hey, it's got 3/4" tappings." is the

> first thing they say.

>

> hb

>

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> 304&Step=30"_To Learn More About This

> Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in

> "Find A Professional"_/A_

Steve_45

Heatboy,

The total run is no more the 20 feet, at most 10 going to
DHW and 10 from DHW back. The primary circulator nor any
other circulator will be running when the DHW unit calls.
Under those conditions do you think 3/4 is good enough or
should I run 1 inch?

hr

Some more thoughts

You can buy a 3/4" male by 1" copper adapter at plumbing supply houses. Thats how I increase at the tank with one simple fitting. I also use 1" male by 1-1/4" copper adapters, shown in the pic, to use electric water heaters as buffer tanks. Using the element holes.

I would take off the indirect tank connection right at the boiler. This minimizes any flow through the boiler piping in summer mode. I like the Grundfos 15-58 on speed 3 for indirect tanks. This with 1"' pipe will jam plenty of BTU's for quick DHW recovery. They also have the intergral spring checks.

hot rod

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heatboy

What's the pressure drop.......

of 10 GPM in 20' of 3/4" copper? It's about 5'. But the velocity of the water is 7' per second. Noise and erosion will be an issue. 1" copper will drop the head loss to less than 1.5' and the velocity drops to a managable 3.5' per second. So we know we have 16' of head with just the HX and 3/4" piping. We still need to know what the boiler Delta P is, plus fittings and valves.

Will 3/4" heat the tank? Yes, in time. It will not give anywhere near the rated recovery using it. If you prioritize the indirect with undersize piping and pumps, their is a definite possibility of the house starting to cool.

Go 1" and save yourself some possible issues. Even with 1" S&R I would use a Grundfos 26-64.

hb

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Kal Row

ok the full monty

if you already have a priority zone realy - by all means use that

the old B&G flow checks don’t stop gravity flow on reverse flow – you need positive closure by other means like a spring to stop gravity flow – and you need it on both sides – unless you do an 18”U-loop underneath up the zone tee’s (18” downward from warmer to cooler stops gravity flow – just visualize where a cooler glob of water will fall to – but it might be falling at speed because of warmer surroundings, and loop right through a heat trap, if the glob is relatively warmer than what’s in the trap, might happen since the heat trap is usually not insulated – or not – since the trap has conductivity to the hot cross-pipe, – see, you never know – the spring check is your only guarantee

the extra cross pipe is useful if you have it, first in line, larger, and are controlling it thermostatically – to protect the boiler from condensing and to set the system supply temp – since on a 50 degree night, 130 through the baseboards would be better than 180, with less boiler cycling

better listen to HB and do the 1” pipe to the amtrol – and don’t forget the extra spring check on the other side – or the heat will just migrate right out it and you will wake up to a cold shower – like dan holohan says “be the water” – cooler = closer molecules = denser = heavier – that’s why you always only run uphill to outside connections from exposed basement pipe so you have built-in convective freeze protection – if you run downward the cold water will get stuck and freeze

of course I would do it all differently – see ps-sys.jpg
http://www.tekmarcontrols.com/acrobat/a363.pdf
http://www.tekmarcontrols.com/acrobat/d363.pdf
http://www.tekmarcontrols.com/acrobat/e021.pdf - injection rules
http://www.tekmarcontrols.com/acrobat/e022.pdf - balancing rules

Kal Row

the check-trol is shipping

just goto http://www.bellgossett.com/Distrib_US.stm
call your local rep - mine has them in stock, and a brooklyn ny dealer is ALB 718 253 5343 that ships ups

though at 34 dollars list price for the 3/4 inch and 43 for the 1-1/4 you might want to rethink even if your dealer gives you the best trade price
cheaper off with the Grundfos pump with the built in spring check and a brass spring check for the other side at 15$

ps the best prices for the Grundfos 15-58's i got, is at http://www.sidharvey.com/ - dont pay more than 106 even non-trade - they are making them right here in kansas a lot cheaper than it used to cost to make them in germany (btw grundfos is a danish co)

get the fc's not the rfc's i find the rotated flanges on the rfc's to be in the way


also plastic spring checks like those in pumps or the Check-Trol will chatter if there is dirt in them - flush your old system - happened to me!!! - the problem with the taco - the built in check is hard to get to, whereas on the grunfos it's right there in the discharge outlet - the taco people have gotten so much flak on that, that they are changing it - in future casts according to someone i met at ISH

Jed_2

Correction

I received a faxed copy of the SC-5000 Amtrol coil performance curves from Tech Service. Curve A for the Residential single wall coil shows an 11'^ at 10gpm. However, they state the minimum flow to obtain published performance is 5gpm @ 2.25'. I would definately use 1" S/R, and a 008 or equiv., but not larger. 2.25 + 4.7= 6.95'
total head at just under 4fps. I don't know the total surface area of the SC5000 coil, but my Rep tells me 6-8 gpm max for the Residential tank is the best you can get to achieve "pubished rated Performance". Why the "overkill"? Ya can't get it out if it ain't capable of putting it out.

Jed

heatboy

Not sure I understand.

If Amtrol claims you can attain the stated recovery with these tiny flows, then why print the larger ones? 10 GPM will give you more domestic hot water than 5 GPM. Crown also has two sets of output figures for the 40 gallon tank. One with a higher output boiler. If you have a 125 MBH boiler, use all of it to make hot water. You certainly are unable to do that at 5 GPM.

As far as a rep telling me it's not practical, well...........

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Jed_2

You might notice

That the output performances do have an end point as far as boiler output vs gph rating. Crown breaks it down further on a time line. I like that, they are the only one I know of that does that. But, the coil can only produce what it is rated for. More flow = + velocicity, and no further generation. You get what you get.

The Rep has been with Amtrol for at least 15 years, and knows the product inside and out, no well.... about it.

Jed