Radiant Heat Installation questions

Percheron

I am GCing our new home and have am hiring all the various trades to build our house. I have several questions on radiant heat installations.

The plumber is going to use Quest-Pex with an O2 barrier - is there a difference beween this product and Wirsbo?

Also, he plans on using a Burnham boiler with a sidearm. I have heard the side arm be wired for priority so we don't have to oversize the boiler if the boiler is wired for priority. He wants to oversize the boiler to 135,000 BTU's from the 60,000 BTU's he calculated we need to use the 65 gallon sidearm (we have a 50 gallon tub and just 2 of us).

Please let me know you thought on this. Thank you.

Ted_5

What is your location

It's not the tube that makes the job! It's the way it is designed and controled. My system of choice for the radiant is HeatLink. The best contols on the market[IMO]
On the boiler and Indirect tank, I would go with Viessmann.
The Vitodens 200 is 94.2% AFUE and in a low temp system it will be 98% most of the year. Over a years time you could save $600 to $700 peryear over a cast boiler!!! If system is designed correctly. That would be about a 3 to 4 year payback on the added cost for the Vitodens. There is a lot to consider!

Ted

Percheron

We are in Western Colorado at about 5800 feet above sea level. It does not get that cold here - maybe an average of 20-30 degrees above F in the winter, with 15 or so days colder than that. Who is Heatlink made by? The Viessmann that you mentioned - is it a power vent?
Thank you.

Ted_5

HeatLink is made by HeatLink

They are located in Calgary, Canada. They have PEX-A or C.
www.heatlink.com. Viessmann Vitodens 200 is power vented.
Is a good choice for high altitudes, it does not have to be derated up 10,000 ft. www.viessmann-us.com

Ted

Percheron

Other options

We are in an area that makes it hard to get parts. Could you suggest an American or Canadian made boiler? Also, we need a boiler that is not power-vented as we cannot vent out the wall.

Could you also please tell me your thoughts on the original question of oversizing the boiler to accomodate the sidearm. Thank you.

hr

A couple more questions

Is the 60,000 number the actual building load?

If so a 85% efficient boiler at 5800' altitude would need to have an INPUT btu/ hr of around that 135,000 range. As you factor the efficiency and altitude derate against the actual boiler input rating.

Size the boiler to the largeat load, with priority DHW. If the building load is in fact 65,000 BTU/hr. size to that. A boiler sized to that output at your location should provide ample DHW on priority control.

Of course we are assuming an accurate heat loss calc was performed, and that all the components will be installed and controlled properly

The products you listed are all good brand names with fine reputations and support. The contractor designing, installing it and standing behind the work is always the key to a professional install and end product.

hot rod

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Nron_9

boilers

the vitodens can be run virtical through the roof , or look at viessmann vito gas 100 is standard cast boiler with reular vent ,without the ususal stand by loss and great insolation around the boiler if you are using well water look at there storage tank and others like buderus , life time warrenty and they can be cleaned to keep there efficencies up to par , how you put piping in is as important what pipe,you choose though I find wirsbo to be more flexable , and resists damage more ,

Ted_5

Vitodens 200 parts?

Why would it be any harder to get Vitodens parts? They don't just send the boilers over here with no parts. There are Wholesalers in CO. that have parts. Infacted there is a mini Viessmann warehouse in CO. Give the rep a call if you would like to know where to get a contractor or parts if needed. The rep. is Heiter Corp # 719-636-3065.
Yes it can also vent out the roof.

Ted

Radiant Wizard

My Take

The anwser to your question on the tubing is yes they are different. Although they both must meet the ANSI and NSF Standards the way that they are manufactured is different. They both will outlast us as far as life span goes and they are both good products backed by two great companies, Zurn Hydronics (Quest which has been renamed to Zurn) and Wirsbo which is owned by Uponor. You can't loose either way as far as tubing goes. As far as the boiler, if you don't mind spending extra dollars on fuel and like listening to a boiler going on and off all day then oversized is for you. If you want a boiler that runs to the best of its ability and you don't want to hear it run all the time, then sizing the boiler is the way to go. Why do you need something that produces twice as many btu's than you need? You can only use what the system needs and no more. I don't know what type of fuel you are going to burn but there are better choices out there. I would suggest you take a look at spending that extra money on a better boiler than on a bigger boiler that you do not need.

Percheron

I am really concerned about this, so thank you for your help. So, what you are saying, if I understand you correctly, is that if the Heat/Loss calls for 60,000 BTU, that is all we need, if we wire the 65 gallon sidearm as priority. We are using propane as the fuel. We should not oversize the boiler to accomodate the sidearm at all in this case?

What other US made boilers do you recommend? Should we stay away from cast iron boilers?

Percheron

Hi Radiant Wizard, I replied to your post in the wrong area - it is under Hot rod's post. Please see it there and let me know what you think. Thank you.

Percheron

Hi Radiant Wizard, I replied to your post in the wrong area - it is under Hot rod's post. Please see it there and let me know what you think. Thank you.

Percheron

Hi Hot Rod, The post below here is for Radiant Wizard. Looking at the Heat/Loss calc done by the plumber, it shows the Radiant System Boiler Load at 60,000 BTU (excluding supply and return piping losses and aux heat if required). He wants to put in a 65 gallon sidearm. So, is your take at this altitude with a 85% efficiency boiler that we do indeed need a 135,000 BTU boiler? Look at what Radiant Wizard has to say and let me know what I am misssing here. Thank you.

Percheron

We have problems out here in this rural remote area getting American parts, so foreign parts would make it even more difficult. The area code you gave me is over 200 miles away. Hey, we got to travel 5 miles each way just to get the mail - no home delivery out here.

Karis hvac

Why are you using propane?

You get much more BTU/H out of a gallon of oil than you will from propane no matter what the efficiency of the boiler is.

hr

I like simple

and dependable for jobs out in the sticks.

Hard to beat a standing pilot cast iron boiler for that

Sure you can buy more efficient equipment, but much more complicated to troubleshoot and repair.

A heating or plumber in Anytown, USA can troubleshoot and repair a standing pilot boiler. Not so with high efficiency stuff.

I love hi eff, don't get me wrong, but they are not for everyone, everywhere.

So a Burnham 205 (130,000 BTU input) has an output rating of 108,000 (DOE).

Burnham catalog recomends a 4% derate for every 1000 feet above 2000 feet of elevation. So with your derate for altitude you come close enough. In my book.

The next lower Burnham is a 96,000. Much too small.

Rarely do you find a boiler exactly to your design. They don't come in 1000 BTU increments

You might check into your gas value out there. ME has more info on how that plays into your calc.

By side arm I assume you mean an indirect tank?

hot rod

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Percheron

I like simple, too. And so does the plumber. He said he could talk us through some minor problems with the Burnham, but not with the complicated stuff.

Yes, by a sidearm I mean the water heater. So then you think 130,000 BTU is the way to go with our arrangement and needs.

Percheron

We had oil a long time ago, but it was getting hard to find someone that delivered it, so we switched to propane.