Is Dan right? Existential steam question

Frank Dobbs

Steam boiler 3 years old. Oversized to begin with. Half the radiation has been removed in renovation. Plan is to balance steam system by adding two hot water zones (for heat and domestic hot water). And then maybe a little downfiring.

Dan Holohan writes in the domestic hw from steam FAQ:

<<Q: Let's say I'm sizing a new steam boiler and I want to use one or two hot water zones. Should I add the Btu/hr of the hot water zone into the Btu/hr load I need for the steam system and then select a boiler for the combined total?
A: No! Never add the hot-water-zone load to the steam load when you're sizing a replacement steam boiler. This is a game of subtraction, not addition. Size the steam boiler first. Base it on the connected steam radiation load,
plus a suitable pick-up factor, not the heat loss of the building. Then work with the available pick-up load to size your hot water zone or zones. You can't take out more than what's there.
Q: What happens if I over-size my steam boiler?
A: You'll have problem with the steam side of the system: surging water lines, water hammer, uneven heat, high fuel bills.>>

Does this mean the new hw zones will not stop the short-cycling? That the plan we've been working on is wrong?

If so, should I just replace the steam radiation that was removed (some of the mains are still in place)? Or should I put in two new small HW and steam boilers (custom hw radiators have been ordered from Italy)?

Someone here must know the answer.

Frank Dobbs

Is Dan right? Existential steam question

Steam boiler 3 years old. Oversized to begin with. Half the radiation has been removed in renovation. Plan is to balance steam system by adding two hot water zones (for heat and domestic hot water). And then maybe a little downfiring.

Dan Holohan writes in the domestic hw from steam FAQ:

---Q: Let's say I'm sizing a new steam boiler and I want to use one or two hot water zones. Should I add the Btu/hr of the hot water zone into the Btu/hr load I need for the steam system and then select a boiler for the combined total?
A: No! Never add the hot-water-zone load to the steam load when you're sizing a replacement steam boiler. This is a game of subtraction, not addition. Size the steam boiler first. Base it on the connected steam radiation load,
plus a suitable pick-up factor, not the heat loss of the building. Then work with the available pick-up load to size your hot water zone or zones. You can't take out more than what's there.
Q: What happens if I over-size my steam boiler?
A: You'll have problem with the steam side of the system: surging water lines, water hammer, uneven heat, high fuel bills.---

Does this mean the new hw zones will not stop the short-cycling? That the plan we've been working on is wrong?

If so, should I just replace the steam radiation that was removed (some of the mains are still in place)? Or should I put in two new small HW and steam boilers (custom hw radiators have been ordered from Italy)?

Someone here must know the answer.

Unknown

I don't see how it could do what you expect, unless.....

Unless there was only ONE thermostat for the whole she-bang, so that the steam NEVER ran unless the water zones were running at the same time, every time the steam ran.

At this point, you would need the amount of baseboard that the BOILER required, rather than the amount the BUILDING required.

Not very practical.

http://trainingroom.slantfin.com/articles/nm0304-1.html


Noel

Frank Dobbs

So what's my best option now?

Unknown

What's the boiler model number?

Noel

Frank Dobbs

Weil-MacClain EG75, 240,000 BTU output.

Unknown

I'd call them

I'm with Slant/Fin.

I can't comment.

Noel

lchmb

have a slant fin in the cellar...

not a bad little unit. Used it to learn alot of thing's. Only thing I wish I could make better was the inconsistancy with the coil for hot water. (Yes I know I should put in a storage tank).

Robert O'Connor_7

zoning with condensate?

If you connect a forced hot water zone (or multible zones) to a steam boiler, it should (If connected right) give you independent operation. If the HW zone(s) call for heat, the circulator should start, when satisfied, it stops. If an aquastat is connected (if connected right) and the water temp is below the set-point, the boiler should fire only up to the high limit setting and then shut off. If the thermostat still isn't satisfied the circulator should continue to run. Balancing you steam side of this aplication (being the boiler is oversized) is going to be a little tricky, but not completely impossible. First, lets find out how much radiation is connected and then take it from there............................Robert O'Connor/NJ

Frank Dobbs

connected radiation

OK,

Here are the numbers on the steam side. (I measured six radiators using a sheet from the Burnham web site).

Output -- 240,000 BTU gross 180,000 BTI net
net = 750 SF of steam. (according to the boiler manual.

The radiators on the steam system are 178 SF of steam. They have Danfoss thermostatic valves, and so some of them are closed some of the time.

There is a 2" heating pipe and return in an unheated part of the basement. I was planning to remove it, but if I keep it, I figure pi x 40 ft x 2" = 21 SF.

If you add that together, you can claim, I guess 199SF. But should there be a pickup factor for the long horizontal pipe? It starts right in the boiler room.

Did I do this right?

If so is it possible to down-fire from 750SF to 200 SF? Isn't there a danger of flue gases condensing, or something?

Could heat exchangers (Steam to HW) increase the steam load and make things work better than using the boiler HW?

Thanks,

Frank

Bill Nye

you could

triple the size of you house? Or, you could buy the right size boiler. You are trying to defy the laws of physics.

Dan wrote an article a while back about a man looking for absolution. We really deep down want some one to tell us it will be all right.

I think in this case your sin will not be forgiven. [ I'm refering to the boiler selection , not your moral character]

Frank Dobbs

Which is best?

<<<triple the size of you house? Or, you could buy the right size boiler. You are trying to defy the laws of physics.>>>

You must have misread my message.
The 178 SF (43,000 BTUs) of steam radiation is only for the 2nd & 3rd floors.

The heat loss of the 1st floor is 50,000 and of the basement is 20,000 BTUs.

Total heat loss about 115000 BTU.

The gross/net output of my boiler is 240,000/180,000.

All of the heating experts I discussed this job with failed to see that replacing the steam radiation on the 1st floor and basement with a HW zone would not help with the boiler being oversized. They said the HW zone would help. I only realized that they are wrong by reading Dan Holohan's FAQ on HW zones for steam boilers.

Following the advice of these professionals I have ordered beautiful hydronic radiators from Italy.

Which is the best of my three really bad choices?

1. Install heat exchangers for a hydronic heat zone and domestic hw in such a way that they always draw heat from the steam boiler when it creates steam. Then downfire the boiler to balance. Is this even practical?
2. Install steam radiators instead of hydronic on the 1st floor and basement. Sell the beautiful Italian radiators on ebay for a big loss. Downfire the boiler to balance.
3. Junk the 3 yr old steam boiler. Install 2 small boilers, one steam, one hydronic for the two different zones?

I really need practical advice. I'll address the absolution question on another thread.

Thanks in advance,

Frank

Frank Dobbs

Which is best?

> triple the size of you house? Or, you could buy

> the right size boiler. You are trying to defy the

> laws of physics.


You must have misread my message.
The 178 SF (43,000 BTUs) of steam radiation is only for the 2nd & 3rd floors.

The heat loss of the 1st floor is 50,000 and of the basement is 20,000 BTUs.

Total heat loss about 115000 BTU.

The gross/net output of my boiler is 240,000/180,000.

All of the heating experts I discussed this job with failed to see that replacing the steam radiation on the 1st floor and basement with a HW zone would not help with the boiler being oversized. They said the HW zone would help. I only realized that they are wrong by reading Dan Holohan's FAQ on HW zones for steam boilers.

Following the advice of these professionals I have ordered beautiful hydronic radiators from Italy.

Which is the best of my three really bad choices?

1. Install heat exchangers for a hydronic heat zone and domestic hw in such a way that they always draw heat from the steam boiler when it creates steam. Then downfire the boiler to balance. Is this even practical?

2. Install steam radiators instead of hydronic on the 1st floor and basement. Sell the beautiful Italian radiators on ebay for a big loss. Downfire the boiler to balance.

3. Junk the 3 yr old steam boiler. Install 2 small boilers, one steam, one hydronic for the two different zones?

I really need practical advice. I'll address the absolution question on another thread.

Thanks in advance,

Frank

John Starcher_4

Dan.....

....thought he was wrong once.

Turned out he was mistaken ;-0

Starch

Bill Nye

Nope

> > triple the size of you house? Or, you could

> buy _BR_ > the right size boiler. You are

> trying to defy the _BR_ > laws of

> physics._BR_

>

> You must have misread my message.

> The 178 SF (43,000 BTUs) of steam radiation is

> only for the 2nd & 3rd floors.

>

> The heat loss

> of the 1st floor is 50,000 and of the basement is

> 20,000 BTUs.

>

> Total heat loss about 115000

> BTU.

>

> The gross/net output of my boiler is

> 240,000/180,000.

>

> All of the heating experts I

> discussed this job with failed to see that

> replacing the steam radiation on the 1st floor

> and basement with a HW zone would not help with

> the boiler being oversized. They said the HW

> zone would help. I only realized that they are

> wrong by reading Dan Holohan's FAQ on HW zones

> for steam boilers.

>

> Following the advice of

> these professionals I have ordered beautiful

> hydronic radiators from Italy.

>

> Which is the

> best of my three really bad choices?

>

> 1.

> Install heat exchangers for a hydronic heat zone

> and domestic hw in such a way that they always

> draw heat from the steam boiler when it creates

> steam. Then downfire the boiler to balance. Is

> this even practical?

>

> 2. Install steam

> radiators instead of hydronic on the 1st floor

> and basement. Sell the beautiful Italian

> radiators on ebay for a big loss. Downfire the

> boiler to balance.

>

> 3. Junk the 3 yr old steam

> boiler. Install 2 small boilers, one steam, one

> hydronic for the two different zones?

>

> I really

> need practical advice. I'll address the

> absolution question on another thread.

>

> Thanks

> in advance,

>

> Frank

Bill Nye

Nope

I read
quote
"The radiators on the steam system are 178 SF of steam"

The boiler , 750 sq. ft.. 200x3 = 600 . More than triple!

The BTU load of the hot water zone will not subtract from the 750, well it really will but not for the sake of sizing the boiler/radiation.

Is the 240,000 Gross input?

I would replace the boiler, keep the radiators, and certainly consider a seperate hot water boiler. But that is just me. Money is always an obstacle but patching or making do or just living with it will waste money too.

I can just imagine 10 yrs from now living with a boiler that doesn't work. I haven't seen your system so take whatever comment I make with a grain of salt.

Good luck, really, I hope you get it sorted out.

Unknown

Try This

Use thw beatuful radiators imported from Italy as radiators on your New Two Pipe Steam Heating system located on the first floor.

By installing a two Pipe steam system on the first floor you can install a zone valve for the second floor. With a bit of creative piping and makihg sure that dimensions A & B are not violated you can jack up the BTUHs used for steam heating.

As far as downsizing the burner goes a gas job may be tricky.

I Think that you may have to buy a new burner assenbly for that boiler or maybe you can remove a few burner rails from the manifold and plug the orifice opennings.

I would double check that with the boiler manufacturer and the gas company.


You may also need to install a baffle in the breeching of the boiler as downsizing 25% or more may requiore a smaller chimney.


Jake

Weezbo

ahhh... i see...

just found this...i had no idea the boiler lash up was so good. well i removed 800k + X 2 and installed two slant fins a 70 and a 60. the oversized bulls were eating up the oil... the new ones are, when running outright are cranking less than 600k combined.the oil savings alone must have paid for the installation by now. another example,some guy wanted to lash an 8 sectional Burhnam into his house...told me he'd already paid for it and couldnt take it back...even after informing him that it was sufficent to heat the house, his next door neighbours and er perhaps the boarding home down the street....he was absolutely certain he wanted me to hook it up to the place... it works.been working 10 years buh i honestly know i would refuse to do it again.it has a 2 inch header i put radiant floor some ceiling some base board 100 gallon heated storage water tank a 10" flue... a slant fin 30 or a weil mclain 4 would have Worked just fine.you sound like you are sorta in my friends shoes and are trying to find someone like me to make it work...my friend didnt want to hear what i was saying, he only wanted to hear that,' indeed i can make it go....'

Mad Dog

You are going to waste alot of time monkeying around

with this boiler "to make it fit." Isn't your time worth more than that? Hire a professional - this time - to properaly size it, and then replace it with the proper sized one. You are trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.....chalk t up, bite the bullet and move on. What you want to do does not make sense AND more importantly is very risky and dangerous...CARBON MONOXIDE production concern you? Plugging one or two burner ports can be gotten away with, and many of us have done it with decent success. However, you are asking too much if you plug more than that up.....besides....This is ajob for an experienced pro....not a tinkerer! Do the right thing! Good Luck Mad Dog

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Matt Undy

Maybe you should install a coupel large radiators outside the building...