18\" off the floor code grandfathering question.

Glenn Harrison_2

I went to a call today for a couple looking to by an older house. They hired a home inspector, and he made note that the 50 year old boiler and 5 year old water heater that are installed in a one car garage have the burners at floor level. Now Ihe water heater is not up to code as it was replace 5 years ago and should have been raised then. My question is, does the 18" code have a grandfather clause that allows older equipment to stay the way it is, or does the code mandate ALL equipment be installed at 18" off the floor, even those installe before the code? Also, does anybody no when that code was implemented?

Thanks, Glenn.

Weezbo

heres the question

will the code let it be there?..well evidently somethings let it be there...more than likely gravity and non interventionists....the thing is the last owners werent storing large gasoline cans and filling thier snow mobiles indoors during the period its lived there. ..When people go to get some property financed at a bank thier inspectors come along to insure there are few Sniveling clauses the new owners will have to fall back on if the house payments arent made...the Bank is not a real estate agentcy and is far more interested in their $so hence the need to move boilers around and spark (receptacales,washers dryers freezers and a host of other)producing devises. ah once You OWN the home well thats different however if you live in the city or some tight cc neighbourhood the local building inspector will eventually show up and instruct you on the evil of your ways:)codes are for your protection and the community in which you live. if your house never went Boom!!! yet your next door neighbours did, well...that would certainly at least allow you to entertain the idea that there are reasons behind the codes.

Robert O'Connor_7

18\"

What state?????Robert O'Connor/NJ

Firedragon_4

Most codes are written on

a where-is, as-is basis. If any thing is changed, and a permit has to be pulled, all or part of the install must be brought up to code. The level of upgrade is determined by the local jurisdiction.

The 18" rule pertains to a Building Code since the oilburner codes (NFPA31 and CMR4.00) don't address it.

Tony_8

My opinion

Is that the code is there to prevent catastrophe. If their house blows up or burns down because of floor level burners igniting fumes, whose "grandfather" is going to help you ? Grandfathering doesn't make it any less dangerous. I'd like to think that in the last 50 years the industry has learned a thing or two. To ignore a safety code violation and run the risk of potential disaster just because "it's been that way since it was installed", to me, is almost unthinkable. It's about the same as leaving Plexvent or Ultravent installed when you know the possibilities.

Constantin

Hey Weezbo

The 18" rule seems mostly applicable for unprotected combustion appliances that derive their combustion air from inside the building envelope. The gas outdoor waterheater we developed at ADL was supposed to get around such issues. However, AWHG never found a way to sell the thing in great numbers and it appears that AWHG has pulled the WeatherPro off the market.

Instead, they seem to have a lot of success with their flammable-vapor-resistant water heater. I wonder if they're also required to be 18" off the ground. How about sealed combustion appliances?

Constantin

On the other hand,

How far should the industry bend over to cover abuse such as spilling hydrocarbons in the basement? For example, the 18" rule is well and good for ground-hugging hydrocarbons, yet flammable vapors may still rise and with the right air/fuel mixture cause the whole place to blow up.

For example, our safety instructor told us of a guy who managed to level his house while laying tiles in the kitchen. The stove pilot light and lack of ventilation did the rest. Grain elevators can also go boom easily - they have the tightest electrical standards for static and other forms of electricity, as far as I can tell.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for passive safety in devices. That's why our heating plant will be sealed, we'll have an IDWH, etc. I simply wonder if the 18" rule will do more to prevent the gas water heater from getting wet during a basement flooding than actually protecting the occupants from flammable vapor issues. However, I presume that the 18" rule is quite popular with plumbers since it makes lighting the unit a lot easier.

Dale

If this was on natural gas or lp

If this was a gas product one would look to the edition of the fuel gas code in effect at the time of installation. For instance most old steam boiler relief valves are not and don't have to be piped to the floor since the code didn't use to require it. Now it does. The oldest code I have is 1974 and on page 15, 1.3.1.6 the 18 inch rule is there. Timmie probably has all the oldest codes so if the install date is known a check may be worth the time. So, at least 30 years ago it was code. The 2002 code, the current one, states 18 inches unless "FVIR". I think this boiler will need to be raised unless the install spot is changed to a sealed room with air and access from the outside, and of course a way to keep it from freezing.

Glenn Harrison_2

Illinois, Chicago suburbs.

Glenn Harrison_2

Allow me to clarify one thing.

I am aware, and have made the potential buyer aware that if they are to us this garage as a garage in any way, that they have to raise these appliances to help prevent a fire. Actually in my opinion they should put in sealed combustion appliances because if it were my house I wouldn't put anything in that garage even with the appliances at 18" off the floor. I am just asking if the code says it has to be raised so the buyer can try to get a credit from the seller to bring the boiler up to code. If this boiler is grandfathered then the buyer won't have a leg to stand on, and the buyer will be footing the entire bill.

By the way, this is a natural gas boiler and wate heater.

jim lockard

Well

Glen I been told as long as a garage has a garage door its a garage wether you put the pool table in there or the dinning room table still a garage?? As for moving the boiler. Will the house transfer without doing so, by that I mean is the bank and the insurance company good with it, if so maybe between parties to fight it out. Man this is why we need the reinspection code or sales code all of these nightmares being past from seller to unsupecting buyer. Never knew a house that blew up or burned down from termites, but got to have a termite inspection. Hell of a lobby. Best Wishes J. Lockard

Robert O'Connor_7

What state??

Check with the municipality. Did you install or have the boiler installed? If so, did you secure a permit? If you had a permit & the job passed, you MAY be OK, but I dought it. Certain municipalities can & do adopt by ordiance & resolution to, If your house recognizes a ATTACHED garage it must stay a garage or have the resonable expectation to be used as such, if you sell your home. What does this mean? If you sell, there's not permenent structural barriers preventing the continued use as a garage. OR, If you are allowed to change the space into something other than a garage you may of sought a use variance and there for possibly effecting other local rules. Some towns don't want cars on the street after a certain hour or limit the ammount of cars one may keep on the property. It all boils down to, what may be good enough for you ,may not be good enough to whom you sell to. This is why there are codes & zoning laws. SOOOOO. Where you @??....Robert O'Connor/NJ

Weezbo

HELLO

Currently here in our munincipalities that jump on the Band wagon so to speak our appliances may be required to be even Higher than 18 "we also Must Have outside air in the two car garage 6:"in diameter with 1/2" screen mesh. say we use a BF or dedicated out side air directly to an appliance That dont even cut it any more because thats not the code that has been adopted! ))This code states get this any boiler in a two car garage with a door height of over 8"..... now hold on a momment here..when was the last time you and Martha returned home to slide gractiously beneath th 7inch garage door? what ever... the thing is that spark producing appliances must also be raised as must electrical receptacales....now cha Know what? I have seen forigen cars the electrical MUST be beneath 18 inches....maybe my 350 1 ton isnt then again i couldnt park it in a garage with less than 10 foot doors:)maybe:)so there is little danger in say parking in a garage with 7 " doors ))so way i got it figured someday you will all be like me the guy with the biggest truck Must park the Furthest away!:)))I know i digress..sorry personaly i have no problem with the boilers with outside air or in a space dedicated to them,or in a garage with plenty of Breathing room..my biggest mind bind on the issue isnt the levatation aspect of the code ...stand BACK Folks The Boiler guy Is Levatating the Boiler another 6 inches off the Ground!...its the say please come over and take a look at the boiler you installed....ok well whats up? any leaks? no I was wondering if you could hook up some more of the big copper pipe to the boiler....well yah let me stop by tomorrow.... the guy rolls up the garage door wall to wall POS'S Really everywhere! so i fight my way back to the boiler past bycycles scateboards golf bags tennis rackets.... to the boiler wow! isay to the guy ! isnt that a 650 snowmobile you have hanging off the boiler header? Yikes!oh no this particular piping arrangement doesnt really allow for any change in it do too the detrimental effect it would have on the flow chareteristics:))) Now Thats where i'm comming from:))

Weezbo

constantine....i've seen the outside water heater...

in a news letter once and thought i wonder how something like that would work around here.... I hate to date my self on the combustion deal however it seems like only a while ago...i was putting boilers on concrete blocks and pavers just because i thought it looked right and made it easier to work on...then it became a code and i was ok with that ,...then the opening doors came along....and they went even higher,then the poke outta the ground balustrades and higher ..way i see it i'm getting good at levitating:)....i was standing infront of a new slant fin one sunday when a friend came by to tidy up some sheet rock and paint what are you doing? asks he . i go stand in another place then walk back to where i was standing in front of the boiler OMMMM....OMMMM....practiscing levitation says i...it doesnt seem to be working ....so i guess i gotta pick this thing up and shove it on the stand:))) God always sends someone to help me and well as you can see I need Help )

Tony_8

No abuse

It's in a garage. Gasoline vapors are heavier than air. No spill necessary, a loose cap on the mower or car or a 5 gallon can with a loose lid or just a spout on it. I think the industry "bent over" for FVIR equipped water heaters. No need if the code is followed, but we're stuck with it now.

Bill_14

No

Your buyer should be advised that the corrective work is required and you should give him a firm price so he can make a decision with the seller.

Grandfathering is certainly not an issue and it shouldn't be in this case. A code is a code and when ownership changes the new owner is subject to guidelines in effect at the time. In fact, if the present owner had any work done that required a permit & inspection by a plumbing or mechanical inspector, this inspector would have the authority to red tag this issue.

Since you have seen the situation, you should get on record with the potential buyer.

Constantin

You should have seen...

... the look on the face of the CSPC representative I once traveled with to Bradford White when I made a rather un-PC remark about the funny way we improve safety in this country... by suing manufacturers.

In Germany, the government sets safety standards via DIN, T

Constantin

Ahh... the WeatherPro

It was a unit developed specifically for the manufactured housing and builder market. As it would be less expensive to install than the "heater huts", garage installations, etc. it was thought the unit would sell well... Since we couldn't get White Brothers to make a custom valve for the ODWH that would have a "freeze" setting, AWHG decided not to sell it North of the Mason-Dixon line.

Since then, it appears that AWHG couldn't make the unit sell in great numbers. Perhaps AWHG was the wrong company to be the missionary for this technology. On the other hand, it's parent company in Australia sells outdoor gas water heaters almost exclusively. Go figure.