An idea

Randy Tibbits

I looked at a job the other day. The guy wanted infloor heat only, in a slab. no hot water maker or high temp heat emitters. So I got to thinking why not use a munchkin with non barrier tubing, brass fittings and a bronze pump? I used wirsbo tubing and the idea of using non barrier tubing seems odd. Is it a good approach for a job like this?

Brian

Non Barrier Tubing

I have used the NY Thermal Trinity since they've come out and thats how I install them,with aqua-pex.I also use stainless pumps and brass/copper fittings.When you take into consideration the price difference between non & oxygen barrier pipe it basically pays the price difference for the upgrade of the boiler.

Good Luck
Brian

DaveGateway

non-O2-barrier PEX

Randy,
I got a bunch of negative comments here when I raised this same question 6 weeks ago. I think that it came from turf protection than from actual facts.
Both Wirsbo & Kitek state in their design manuals that: if all components that touch the water are non-ferrous, then its OK. I used all non-ferrous components & non-O2-barrier PEX in my own home, nothing is corroding, water is still clear (3yrs).
Am designing a much larger system for a neighbor the same way with a Munchkin. What we will save on the PEX will more than pay for the bronze pumps, etc.
A having trouble locating a 15gal non-ferrous expansion tank, If you find any let me know.
Bill Patrick

hr

The only drawback

would be if down the road someone wanted to switch to a cast iron boiler, or inadvertently install ferrous components, pumps, exp tank fill valve, etc.

Those components would be agressivly attacked and could cause problems with the Munchkin HX.



Make sure the savings is really there. Non barrier pex is getting very competitive, $$-wise

hot rod

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

heatboy

I could be mistaken...........

but I don't believe there are any boiler manufacturers that would warranty any issues when using non-barrier piping unless it is isolated with a heat exchanger. At that point, why bother?

hb

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Robert O'Connor_7

??

Why? Is it really THAT much more $$. My $$'s on the barrier hose. What then are you using for an expansion tank?? Sounds like an expensive experiment. Most mechanics aren't gonna know this if by chance your not around and say your pump goes.....Robert O'Connor/NJ

Weezbo

O BARRIER PIPE

what price savings are you looking at? i use bronze body pumps mostly and O barrier ... the price difference isnt much...i dont know that you could dash out and buy a viessman with the savings by going iron flange and water tubing... some one is giving you the wrong scoop!

Randy Tibbits

I did'nt put any number crunching to this. It was more of a "I wonder if" type thing. My thoughts have always been to use a quality tubing because once it's in a slab it's not going to be changed. I still daydream about things like this.

ScottMP

SOooo..

> I did'nt put any number crunching to this. It was

> more of a "I wonder if" type thing. My thoughts

> have always been to use a quality tubing because

> once it's in a slab it's not going to be changed.

> I still daydream about things like this.





To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

ScottMP

SOooo..

The customer decides two years later to install an indirect because he now has Hydronics ???

Or another zone...

or a towel warmer ...

These are all reasons I sell a customer on a hydronic installation. I see NO benefit from this.

Scott

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Mark Hunt

Number crunching


Cost difference between barrier/non-barrier is nominal. You would have to be installing MILES of it to make a difference.

Your idea would work though, stainless steel HX on the Munchkin would handle it.

As HR said, no-one can see the future. Someday, someone else might decide to add something, or will replace the bronze circ with a cast circ. That would cause a problem.


Mark H

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

DaveGateway

O2 PEX

Randy,

See what I mean!

The QUALITY is the SAME! it just costs less because they don't put in the O2 barrier!

Refer to Dan Holohan's book Hydronic Radiant Heating pg96 "You can also install a system that has no iron or steel in it, of course. Brass valves and circulators, copper boilers-these will do nicely because these materials won't rust."
under Mauer Method pg117 "They have no concerns about oxygen-diffusion corrosion in their systems because, like their circulators, every component in their system is nonferrous."

Refer to Wirsbo Complete Design Assistance Manual 4th edition
under topic Oxygen Diffusion pg23 Option 2 "Eliminate all corrosive ferrous components from the system. Wirsbo AQUAPEX is available for those systems that use non-ferrous components (e.g. bronze pumps, glass lined water heaters, etc.)."

under Economic Design pg33 "Use The Correct PEX Product: If ferrous components (i.e. cast iron boiler and/or circulators) are used in the system, then Wirsbo hePEXplus with an oxygen diffusion barrier must be used. However, if there are no ferrous components in the system, the Wirsbo AQUAPEX non-barrier tubing may be used. AQUAPEX is the same quality tubing, but because it has no barrier, it costs less."

This concept is well ingrained here:
"IT'S THE WAY I'VE ALWAYS DONE IT, THEREFORE IT'S THE ONLY RIGHT WAY TO DO IT"

Lets see some quotes from the manufacturers of non-ferrous boilers on this??????????
Bill Patrick

DaveGateway

O2 PEX

Hot Rod, yes someone could?
I could have a similar problem if a mechanic inadvertently installs GM parts into my Ford,
Or the "someone down the road" can't read!
Or the homeowner develops amnesia, etc. etc.
Bill Patrick

Brian

Trinity

Will this do Bill.This is from the Trinity website.www.nythermal.com
Also the cost difference up here between hepex and aquapex is $160.00.an average house that I do has 6000 ft of pipe.Thats $960.00 that I can put towards other upgrades or that will separate me from the guy that would rather save the $50.00 difference between a cast and stainless pump.


Brian

Randy Tibbits

Thanks for the input gentlemen. Most of my installs are in slab. I'm going to stick with my old standby "if it's going to be in cement use the best tubing available". I will still daydream and wonder about our trade, I can't help it.

Mark Eatherton1

Field experience rules...

Bill, I am intimately familiar with the system which you referenced out of Dans Book (Maurer). I had an occasion to be asked up to look at the system they installed in an apartment complex. The system was less than 10 years old, and it looked like it was 50! All of the brass (ball and gate) valves they had used had de-zinctified (due to oxygen ingression)and there was white fur (calcification) growing EVERYWHERE.

The owners of the building were spending a BIG chunk of change to change the system out to a closed loop system and replace the dezinced valves.

They had another identical set of buildings which were installed initially as closed loop systems with o2 barrier tubing, and they looked PERFECT.

As an expert witness in the Entran 2 cases, I can't tell you the damage I've seen from mis-applied non barrier tube. Dissolved boilers, expansion tanks, leaks through ceilings ruining million dollar antiques and wreaking havoc on peoples lives...

To each his own.

In my opinion, there is a place and time for non barrier tubing, and it's NOT in closed loop heating systems. It IS in systems (potable) where the oxygen content on the inside of the system is greater than it would normally be.

There is no RIGHT way to do things WRONG.

Time tells all...

As it pertains to "non ferrous boilers", I have yet to see a copper fin tube boiler that DOESN'T use a mild steel tube sheet that would be exposed to high oxygen content water. Some DHW tank manufacturers (Triangle Tube Phase 3) also void their warranty if used on systems without oxygen barriers.

The $ you think you're saving your customer up front are going to come back to haunt them in the long run in my opinion and field experience.

To borrow a line from Taco, "Do it right the first time"...

ME

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

DaveGateway

O2 PEX

Mark,
Thanks, I had never heard of de-zinctified valves.
The reason I come here is to learn.

Were there contributing factors or do all non-O2 PEX installs lead to this sort of failures?
Maby Wirsbo & others should rewrite their specs?

I hope that I won't have this problem with my system. I only run it a max temp of 125* out of the HX in the Voyager & only have soft well water in the system. So I'll keep my fingers crossed.

There is more than one way to skin a cat!
Bill Patrick

Brian

Mark

So what you're saying is that we should stop useing brass and stainless fittings on domestic hot water tanks and water meters??? because they are going to see a heck of a lot more oxygen than a closed system with non oxygen barrier pipe.I have to think that the cause of your problem was something else or there must have been a ferrous component to the system.

Brian

Duncan_2

Reasons vs. rationalizations

IT'S THE WAY I'VE ALWAYS DONE IT, THEREFORE IT'S THE ONLY RIGHT WAY TO DO IT

Actually, it turns out that IS the way I've always done it.

But not because it's the ONLY RIGHT WAY to do it.

For me, it was because the economic advantage was never significant enough to go non-barrier. One job with a lot of tubing (and therefor a larger tubing-cost saving) came close, but no cigar. That is, for a few bucks more, the homeowner has the cheap insurance and versatility of a truly closed system. I don't ever have to worry about any kind of oxygen problem ever. [OK, there's one exception: a slow leak with constant fresh oxygenated make-up water but usually the owner calls when the floor gets wet.]

I wouldn't necessarily interpret the reasons given by the experienced and knowledgeable pros who responded here as arbitrary, habitual, capricious or turf protecting (What turf?). They would just as soon use a blue boiler as a red boiler if it fit the application better.

The guys that responded know what they're talking about. They are not saying non-barrier is wrong, or bad or inferior - just that they have their reasons to go closed system. Reasons that outweigh -in their opinion- going with a non-barrier system.

Just like there are reasons to go with non-barrier in some cases.

Like Mark, I've worked on both kinds of systems. Some had problems, some didn't. Properly designed non-barrier systems should last indefinitely. I think what Mark is describing above may be some kind of dissimilar metals and electrolysis issue the designer couldn't forsee. The problem non-barrier systems I've commonly seen are typically cast iron with polybutylene run at higher stapleup systems - poor design.

In the end, given the kind of neglect many heating systems end up seeing, I think making systems as bullet-proof and easily servicable as is economically possible is a desireable design approach. Especially when you look at things over the long haul. These guys have designed, played with, tweaked, installed, observed, repaired and seen a lot of systems, and that counts for something. They're too sharop to get comfortable with the "That's the way I've always done it" design philosophy. Most here, and hot rod especially, likes to tinker and play.

The expansion tank you're looking for exists. It's an expansion tank designed for potable water systems. If you pipe it below, and a short distance away from, the hot water there shouldn't be a temperature issue.

DaveGateway

O2 PEX

Duncan,
Hello again. Thanks for the input.

Re Your statement: "They are not saying non-barrier is wrong, or bad or inferior" Some posts sounded like that to me. See my thread about non-ferrous components from about 6 weeks ago.

My statement does not fit all, I'm sure! But based on some comments, I think it fits some. I would bet that your generalization saying all are open-minded don't hit all the nails on the head either.

Why don't anyone respond to the direct quotes from the Wirsbo Complete Design Assistance Manual??? Too big a dog?

I have looked at DHW expansion tanks. All that I have found are made out of steel. What seems to be the most protected inside is a Cash Acme TE series. Do you know of something better?

Thanks Bill Patrick

Mark Eatherton1

I think...

a lot of it has to do with the pH and hardness of the water. In the case of a heating system, the pipe, valve and fittings never really get a chance to set a protective patina on the inside of the system. The circ pumps keep washing it off, thereby exposing the insides of the fittings, valves etc to oxygen ingression. Oxygen IS agrressive, even towards non ferrous components. They are resistant, but not impervious to attack. I've seen dezinctification on DHW system too.

I've also witnessed copper pipes failing in system with non barrier tubes. Why take a chance? If it is truly a closed loop, oxygen tight system, its a proven system. And those systems that I've seen over the thirty years I've been looking at them have proven reliable.

JMHOAE

ME



To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Weezbo

I'm Ba~Ack!

)oops caught me:) this early spring when it was a balmy 35 40 below we got a call so my buddy Fred and I went to investigate..all the big wheels from the corporation a(NEW BUYERS) and all the big wheels from the sellers camp and a bunch of other well intentioned souls were there...and a Plumber maint guy... well he says the tubing in the slab is wirsbo he pex! it is:)?well not that i doubt your expertise in the matter buh do you mind if Fred and i take a look? you guys dont have to worry i already looked and fired up the boiler:) Oh really?:)well where is the boiler... Ha HA hA hA ! What a bad and i do mean Bad joke...the thing was being eaten alive:)))) the thing had frozen and there were busted pipes everywhere the temp gauges say 180 running into the slab:))) so,...i say hey Fred this thing could explode at any momment lets shut it off and get outta here:) i'd go on however it gets worse:).... so i dash back and say to the maint guy who turned this thing on? 'I did its ok.'well if it were ok why do you think these guys called us? ... so you say this is wirsbo hey:) it looks grey to me and that would mean it was Quest:)Oh No its wirsbo!...so i take my coffee and spill some GRRR on a napkin and clean the pipe with it and Fred is telling the owner some of the things I spotted in the boiler room....the two of them arrive well it may need some flash light and Fred hands me a Flash light Quest it says on it:) well what does this say in blue writing right there? Dude splits.... now i break out the ultra sound and latch on to the corperate owner and give him ultra sound lessons and splice in the minor technicalities of why we cannot turn this system back on and what our observations are and apologise for not being ready to TUNE the MEGGAR...at this time due to the liabilities involved. the ice in the lines hadnt even thawed out yet and i had gingerly shut all the valves off to areas with 10 inch i dentifiable Bursts in the pipe .... I trade the old timer off for the seller with Fred and show him a few of the minor technicalities of the system...and explained why we could not with a clear conscious turn the thing back on or "fix "it.the people working on the fiberglass were some dang Lucky fellows:)....the maint guy came back and said well we can hook up the unit heaters that used to be here........:)))) i ran this Observation past Fred these must be som New ESP driven unit heater they had installed,how else can you explain the lack of electrical metallic conduit to operate them:)))Whoa Boy Whoa! ) the owner asked me well would you guys have time to put in a new boiler? I said this is something that you will have to disscuss with Fred as i am only able to speak for myself,however...the quest would need to be seperated from the system and the unit heaters would need to be wired and plumbed in and some unit heaters purchased new stack out side air ...this is not something we can do over night ...there are alot of unseen items every remote station has frozen and burst,thats why i immediately closed all those valves...anti freeze can only stay froze with lotsa water for just so long:)..he then said ok let me ask Fred...so we changed people again and Said well...the buildings in good shape however let me ask...were you thinking of having anyone Live here? because the Plumbings toast.and the boilers gotta go ... you can have a new system put in however your slab system is history..maybe it is best to close the deal and mention that you are aware of the deficentcies and go from there. we let the seller know the truth as well so it isnt like hes unaware or the defugalties.... well guys that story has all the illumination in the world on non o barrier,an idiot with ambition,cautious sellers and buyers,careful contractors ,some very unknowing fiberglass workers in the building and a one meg boiler luckily it wasnt on the 11 o clock news that day...20000 square' building demolished by runaway boiler ..stack was rusted through no secondary high limit, leaks starting all over the boiler room whenn we got there , the doors wide open double 4 foot wide doors...180 and going up headed for the slab! ) the temp change alone would have cracked the slab. i think the slab if flushed and seperated might live a while longer i say to Fred nah says he this should be treated as a failed system....soon the stuff will delaminate and then We will be back over here AGAIN .... yah your right ...Fred i dont have time to do this system right now maybe summer".

Weezbo

wirsbo..

i've read that also...that you can use non barrier pipe in a slab...i will let the more adventurous have first stab at it.... a friend lashed up a house with the non barrier however you cant twist his arm and beat him to do it again:) )))

Duncan_2

Hi Bill.

"However, if there are no ferrous components in the system, the Wirsbo AQUAPEX non-barrier tubing may be used. AQUAPEX is the same quality tubing, but because it has no barrier, it costs less."

I don't think it's too big a dog, it's simply a true statement. Kinda hard to argue that the truth isn't true. I have no reason to think Wirsbo produces anything but quality.

Years ago, I priced a couple systems using non-barrier, and just didn't see an economic advantage. For a 3,000 square foot home it was a couple hundred bucks difference. When I added up the cost of bronze circs, heat exchanger, it was darn near even. The only non-ferrous boilers I found back then were copper-fin-tubed with glass-lined wet wall headers. Designed for batch water heating or swimming pool heating - not a good match for what I needed.

So on the first circulator failure, the money saved on the non O2 tubing was spent on the added bronze or SS cost of the replacement circ. The other option is to pay a little more for O2 barrier tubing up front (at the same time less on cast iron componrents), and when the first circulator replacement comes along, you pay less for a cast iron circ.

But maybe tubing prices have changed since I last compared. There are certainly more non-ferrous boilers to choose from these days.
I was unable to tell from Brian's post whether he saves $190.00 or $960.00 by using non-barrier.

Sad to hear you got trashed for advocating or just mentioning non-O2 barrier tubing for heating. I think if you read the posts again, it appears to me that arguments against using it have less to do with the tubing itself, but more to do with what is (or may be in the future) attached to the tubing.

I don't have a problem with it, I just never had a reason to go that way. The true fact of the matter is, low temperature systems (100°F range) don't usually have problems with oxygen. I've got a 12 year old system with polybutylene tubing and all the original cast iron components. That's my own home.

The other side of the coin is, that after you see hundreds of systems, most of them repairs, you start to get an idea of how robust and bulletproof you need to design a new system. For a few twenty dollar bills extra, I'll always err on the side of a more conservative, cautious design, in this case barrier tubing. A little more fudge factor. And when I say that, I'm not implying using non O2 tubing is risky or edgy design. Just tighter design parameters, more specifically for all the other components.

Speaking of which, it sounds like you've checked out potable expansion tanks more than I ever have.

Duncan_2

Big dogs aren't always mean.

Hi Bill.

"However, if there are no ferrous components in the system, the Wirsbo AQUAPEX non-barrier tubing may be used. AQUAPEX is the same quality tubing, but because it has no barrier, it costs less."

I don't think it's too big a dog, it's simply a true statement. Kinda hard to argue that the truth isn't true. I have no reason to think Wirsbo produces anything but quality.

Years ago, I priced a couple systems using non-barrier vs. barrier, and just didn't see an economic advantage. For a 3,000 square foot home it was maybe a couple hundred bucks difference at most. When I added up the cost of bronze circ, heat exchanger, Spirovent, it was darn near even. The only reasonably priced non-ferrous boilers I found back then were copper-fin-tubed with glass-lined iron wet wall headers. Designed for batch water heating or swimming pool heating - not a good match for what I needed.

Anyway, on the first circulator failure, any money saved on the non O2 tubing would be spent on the added bronze or SS cost of the replacement circ. The other option is to pay a little more for O2 barrier tubing up front (at the same time less on cast iron components). Then when the first circulator replacement comes along, you pay less for a cast iron circ.

But maybe tubing prices have changed since I last compared. There are certainly more non-ferrous boilers to choose from these days.
I was unable to tell from Brian's post whether he saves $190.00 or $960.00 by using non-barrier. ?

Sad to hear you got trashed for advocating or just mentioning using non-O2 barrier tubing for heating (didn't see that thread). I think if you read these posts again, it appears to me that arguments against using it have less to do with the tubing itself, but more to do with what is (or may be in the future) attached to the tubing.

I don't have a problem with it, I just never had a reason to go that way. The true fact of the matter is, low temperature systems (100°F range) don't usually have problems with oxygen. I've got a 12 year old system with polybutylene tubing and all the original cast iron components. That's my own home.

The other side of the coin is, that after you see hundreds of systems, most of them repairs, you start to get an idea of how robust and bulletproof you need to design a new system. For a few twenty dollar bills extra, I'll always err on the side of a more conservative, cautious design, in this case barrier tubing. A little more fudge factor. And when I say that, I'm not implying using non O2 tubing is risky or edgy design. Just tighter design parameters, more specifically for all the other components.

Speaking of which, it sounds like you've checked out potable expansion tanks more than I ever have.

Mark Eatherton1

Big Dogs run in packs...

They ALL say it's Okay, because according to certain Deutch Industry Norm (DIN) Standards, there are three ways to handle non barrier tube. 1.) An Isolation heat exchanger compatible with both fluids, or 2.) all non ferrous components, or 3.) continuous prescriptive water treatment.

Supposedly...

Anytime you can avoid oxygen in water, your maintenance costs will be MUCH less.

Sometimes, it's hard to see the forest through the trees:-)

Great words of wisdom oh Duncanone... Good to see you!

ME

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Brian

Duncan

Thanks for the support.It was $160.00/ 1000ft.Up here in Southern Ontario the radiant market is very competative.I am proud of the product I install and try to give my customers value and quality for their money.I install Wirsbo pipe,manifolds and controls.Trinity boilers are the boiler of choice when it comes to condensing/modulating.None of my suppliers have sold a Vitodens and we have a plant right in the middle of my area.If I can can figure a way to improve value and quality for my customers then I will.By eliminating ferous components from my system I will.I already treat the water so I see no adverse effects.If someone is going to add something later then it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see ss pumps and brass fittings and realize that maybe they should do the same.But since that seems to be a concern I will now start putting on the boiler that only non-ferous components should be used.

Brian

Mark Eatherton1

Make sure.....

to mark in large letters on the boiler, "Non ferrous components ONLY!" You at least have half a chance that things won't get screwed up...

ME

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"