oil heat efficiency??? on older equipment

Dave_30

I was called by a new customer the other day. She would like a price on air conditioning in her house. When I went thru the normal questions with her, the one qusetion I asked her is "what kind of existing heat does she have"??
She stated that she has oil heat but her "heating guys told her that it is running at top efficiency" and she would be foolish to think about replacing it. IT IS 40 FRIGGEN years old!!!!what is up with oil companys that continue to talk their customers into staying with heating systems that are that old and INeffecient. Does anyone know of a good article to hand to cutsomers to explain in laymans terms how a heating system that is ancient and is as big as a small car is not efficient. The ONLY thing that is efficient is the burner, but not the total heating system......I would like to talk her into a new boiler as well.....if anyone has a good article they could fix me up with, I would appreciate it, Thanks

Robert O'Connor_3

Remember

The Oil company makes money selling oil and probably sold her the burner upgrade years ago. Sometimes you have to look at the replacement cost and say how long is it gonna take to pay it back if I only get 10-15% savings. Wait till it breaks in some cases.

DIY Homeowner

Different efficiencies

Combustion efficiency does not equal system efficiency.

Mike's comment is also right-on. Oil companies make money by selling oil. The more they sell, the more they make.

Firedragon_4

Send her here and

you may also find out that painting everyone with one big brush doesn't always work, after all most plumbers don't even know what a combustion kit looks like, FACT! That should get a few of them going.............. :-)

http://northshorefuel.com/

Firedragon_4

Here's another one too, before

some rocket scientist comes back with 'only one'!

http://www.sheafuel.com/

BTW, I'll post a different one every day if you would like some people to refer customers to.

Darin Cook

Vending Machine

Even if the oil company is using a digital combustion analyzer, the efficiency numbers are entirely skewed. If they are still using a fyrite analyzer the numbers become even more bogus. If they are still setting the burner up by eye, then they should get in the time machine and go back to 1950 where they belong. Why would they rip out the oil dipensing machine? Who knows maybe that burner is pushing lots of excess air through it, because "hey better to have a 0 smoke than a call back. I do not mean to rip on the oil companies because there are some who care and have knowledgable tech's on staff. It is just that some of the work I have seen and the under cutting dollar amounts charged in my area leave me believing they are only interested in getting dollars transfered to their checking account as fast as possible. Not to mention their employees are typically low on the local pay scale. JMHO

Steamhead

Dave, I have a few old boiler catalogs

that have efficiency ratings in them from the coal era. Tell me what boiler she has and I'll see what I can do. It may be possible to improve the efficiency on her present boiler but it will not match that of a new unit.

Also, is this a hot-water or steam system? What type of radiation is used? I bet you can increase her efficiency by improving the process of getting the heat from the boiler to the rooms.



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eleft_4

Building......efficiency !

If the boiler is 40 years old I would guess the house might be at least that. Don't you think a heat lose evaluation might enter in making a decision here?

How are you going to calculate the A/C size?

al

Leo

A Smart Oil Company

A smart oil company will agressively sell new systems for two reasons, 1) to give the customer the best bang for the buck, 2)if they spend a substantial amount of money to your company they are more apt to stay loyal, hence less likey to go to your competition. Or you can have a boss like I have who thinks Peerless JOT's are new technology.

Leo

Mad Dog

a combustion kit to most plumbers is.................

3 eggs, bacon, extra cheese, and sausage, on a roll with a few squirts of tabasco followed by a quart of Chocolate Milk. You should see how the analyser deals with that. Sorry for the low brow humor - just couldn't resist. Easy on the plumbers Georgie - we're not that clueless. Mad Dog

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Weezbo

i tend to hang with Elefts observation.

say you put 6000 into a bunch of insulation ...that is got! to save the customer a dime. say i buy 6K of new boiler pipes and controls and some shiney new boiler and riello ...the heat is still leaving the building lickity split my boiler is like a weil mclain 663 i have a temp diff of 60 basically it is having some pretty low stack temps with a riello f 3 and a .40 60 danfoss i dont let it phase me stack is cheap so the fact its almost a condensing boiler doesnt really upset me much.and i Know the pos is at Least 35 years old:)) it might be a 662

Firedragon_4

I totally agree MD,

but all oil companies and not all oilheat techs aren't either as the previous posts bemoan! Walk a mile in my shoes and then criticize, FACT!

Dave_30

I will be doing a heat loss/gain calculation on this house

After doing that I will then size the A/C for what the house will need. I would also have, at the same time the heat loss for the house that I could size a new boiler if needed. To be honest, my expertise is in Air conditioning, but I guess I just figure when you have this huge boiler which is being heated by a burner..........with a .85 nozzel ..........and you look at a new low mass boiler with indirect water heater....hmmmmmmmm...my gut feeling tells me that the new system would be more efficient...now I know you cant always go on your gut feeling, but thats why Im asking...in here what is the general concensus on this. Im sure the old system is inefficient..........what does everyone think??

Weezbo

You can calculate all you want...it wont make up for lack of

insulation.

Darin Cook

Physics!!

> insulation.

Darin Cook

Physics!!

You need to look at the home as a whole. Heat loss calculations are a "educated" guess at best. If the stack effect in your home is moving more than three times the amount of air exchanges per hour, your heat loss will be incorrect. When it comes to R-Value and fiberglass there are a huge amount of variables that will affect it. Get someone qualified to do a blower door test. This will give you a very solid starting point of what to do with the shell before you start with the mechanicals.

Firedragon_4

I disagree Darin,

if the heatloss/gain program compensates for air changes although a blower door test is effective it's redundant if the physics and math have alreday been done. BTW, how do you do a blower door test on blueprints????

Weezbo

Firedragon ...:) he he he )

Good point as not all blowerdoor specialists are the same:)) and to play the devils advocate....if the boiler is like 800K with a .80 35 the combustion efficentcy according to stack temp must got them thinking the thing is The most efficent boiler on the Planet! ) and indeed the squirrls nest in the back secetion seem to Prove the co aint an issue:))))

Firedragon_4

hahahahaha!

Darin Cook

Firedragon

I thought you were talking retrofit type situations. But if you are talking new construction, you are still "assuming" that the home was constructed properly. Maybe the insulator stapled the fiberglass inside the stud cavity instead of the outside. Maybe every hole where pipes, wires,ducts, or whatever was never sealed to prevent air movement. What if they pushed the insulation up against the wires in the bay instead of cutting it and fitting it in. What if the homeowner decided to upgrade to densepack cellulose insulation? Oh, and by the way, there are different densities of fiberglass insulation. Do you know which kind went in? Does that make a difference to heat loss/gain calculations? Yes it does and it is huge. You scoffed at the blower door, but how else would you measure air movement in a home. I have been in homes that are 6 months, 1 year old, supposedly built with modern construction methods. These places had a huge stack effect going on. So if the hvac designer using a standard heat loss/gain program "assumed" that the home's air exchanges per hour were normal, guess what, the occupants are now uncomfortable and paying high utility bills. This trade is all about physics. The great part is that there are no gray areas here, either obey or expect the consequences

Firedragon_4

I agree with all that you said

and that is why in addition to a blower door test I also check out attics and anywhere else I can get too! If need me I've opened up more than one wall over the years. It's not one thing, it's all of it.

BTW, any good HVAC calc program should be able to do air changes. I've been using the same one for over 25 years, been teaching it for 17, and selling it for 9, and have come to truly trust it based on RESULTS!

ed wallace

older equipment

dave where is this customer located ??

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Darin Cook

Snoop around!!

Yes, absolutely, you must sometimes get up in the nasty places and see what is going on and what is up there. We are part of the Energy Star program in NYS and do energy audits using blower doors,digital manometers,digital combustion analyzers,etc. I am glad that you do investigate what is really going on in the home. It is just that so many do not. My point is that if someone just throws some numbers around with just assumptions instead of real information, the end product will be unhappy occupants and a call back. Of course for the oversizing of heating equipment, people get away with it because no one ever calls back to say that they are warm. This kind of got away from the intent of the original post, but you hate to see someone throw their money at step 2 instead of step 1. If he starts with the heat first, you know that when he does do the needed shell work the heating system will be oversized. He can sideskirt this if he chooses a modulating type boiler. But this may not be a option for him. Also about hvac calc software, a good one will let you input air exchanges. But you need to know what it is to input it. I am sure you have seen cases where someone does a great heat loss calculation, say for a radiant job and neglect to input the 15 recessed lights in the ceiling. They, depending on brand, can make excellent chimneys. Which in turn makes the heating system ineffective. As you know there is so much information involved here it is hard to get it all out in a couple of posts.

Constantin

Hey Firedragon,

How about posting a review of said fabled program in on the Job?

Firedragon_4

No fable, FACT!

Go here, read it for yourself and you can do a free download that will allow you to do 3 FREE!!

http://www.firedragonent.com/Software.htm

Firedragon_4

I've done some training for National Grid

among others. The whole envelope or nothing, that's my motto!

Radiant Wizard

Find a copy of the Burnham Helper

It has a simple little formula explaining how to figure efficiency.

Dave_30

Ed, The job is located in the Harrisburg PA area

GW

Hey...

I'm Plumber of 20 years, and I might dare say I can run circles around most "heating" guys.

AFUE means nothing. What kind of heat is getting into the house and how much return air is not being diluted with basement air is what thermal efficiency is. How about checking TESP? Most heating guys think this is "factory set" or something silly like that.

Most heating guys MIGHT have a $100 wind meter from the local camper/outdoors/hiking shop to chech CFM. Real pros have a flow hood. Real pros know how to check TESP and can clearly explain to the home owner that a new system won't save them NOTHING! (Please pardon the double negative...)

OK, here's one for the real heating pros. Just a hint... you need to know warm air for this one. What is Vena Contracta?

So, leave us plumbers alone!

Gary Wilson
Massachusetts Master Plumber 10839
Oil Burner Technician 028894
Universal Refrigerant Certificate # 021… hey, that’s my SS #...


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GW

agree!

You're on the ball Darin!

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Firedragon_4

NEVER!

The idea is to all learn from one another, right??? Why are you posting your SS# Gary? No, no, no, that's not required. I totally agree with the draft gauge thingy, buy a real one or forget it, FACT!

GW

Darin

The jury is still out on how efficient a modulating burner is here in my office. The respected Jim Davis has informed me that the reduced radiant heat from a modulating burner is NOT helping the efficiency at all. I'll have a Viessmann Vitodens with heating circulators tapped for pressure drop/head loss/GPM/BTU. It's been too long since I've been involved with the Vitodens; I hope it tells me what RPM is running at so I can calculate supposed BTU in vs. BTU out. I'll compare that to the water side BTU, and I'll have my proof. Yeah, I'll need to account for the condensate too.

Sure, the low flue temps look glorious on the combustion print out... but as you already noted before, these readings are lame.

Gary


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GW

SS #

I was on a role and dumped my wallet out to list all those license numbers to show the world that some plumbers do care.

The refrigerant license is basically my SS #... I thought that wasn't done anymore... Oh well.

Gary

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GW

There's less guess work

on a new construction. BUT, any air change doing a loss/gain is an educated guess, is it not? Garbage in-garbage out kind of thing. This is the real world here... the framing/insulation/sheetrock trades are prone to mess up buildings just like we are, maybe more!

The blower is the only way to CONFIRM air change.

Gary

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Firedragon_4

After having my identity stolen

twice now I am super duper paranoid about giving out any number, FACT! I'm raising a stink now with a state legislator about using SS#'s for any licenses, ANY! It should flat out be illegal, it's already stupid!

Firedragon_4

I have a real problem with this subject

since I've had a two-stage lo-hi-lo in my home (Riello 5M/2) since 1985 and have documented proof that I save 15% over a single-fire burner.

I also know that on Commercial/Industrial that one of the leading reasons for selling modulating is fuel savings. When C/I burners can be purchased (both in the US and Europe) with very expensive 10-15 step modulators over 1 stage and multi-stage types and manufacturers GUARANTEE savings I am confused.

I am also confused why so many specifying engineers believe in them as they do, is it false advertising? Gobbledgook? I guess that makes me lost in Boston.

Unknown

Firedragon is dead on

Our servicemen always try to talk a customer into new equipment when the old system needs it . I think they would rather work on a nice new cast iron boiler , circs on top , easy access to everything , rather than an old Federal with the old oil lubed circs wrapped around the back , no purge valves and a slow speed burner that soots the boiler once a year .

Yes , an oil company is in the business to sell oil . It's also in the business to retain customers and not have a serviceman out at a home 5 times a year working on old equipment . By that time any profit from oil sold there is long gone if the customer has a service contract .

Unknown

Hey George

Can you go into more detail about your system and the burner you have working in it ? Is the Hi-Lo-Hi burner in a residential sized boiler ?

I would guess a modulating burner in a boiler whos input can be changed by various nozzle sizes would be an intruiging idea .

Unknown

Dave , the easiest way I usually state

it to the customer is this - How long does it take to heat the old boiler from room temp to operating temp ? And how long will it take the new , properly sized boiler to reach operating temp . When I was timing equipment , I would usually see differences of 25 minutes or more .

Changing out 40 year old equipment for new , properly sized and running , you will always see an increase in efficiency . We work in a town that has thousands of the exact same old 50+ year old boilers , and when we replace them with new cast iron they save on the average 20 to 30 percent in their fuel bill . Nothing to shake a stick at .

But going by expert advise from the pros here and my own experience rebuilding my home , insulation is the best way to save fuel , and a must before you properly size a new heating system .

Firedragon_4

Hi ron, jr, yeah, I can do that.

Essentially it's an older Mectron 5M that has a 'governor' where the oil valve coil normally is. On top of that are two standard Mectron/40 oil valve coils.

Out of the governor are two lines that go to two pistons, one for lo fire, one for hi. One nozzle like the 702CRD CCT and RWB CF1400, two pressures, 145 on lo, 200 on hi. Standard .50 60 degree nozzle, triple filtration system.

Controls are zone valves (5) that make the burner on lo fire as well as an aquastat in my tankless (Everhot EA). Hi fire is controlled by a flow switch in the hot water pipe for DHW and a Honeywell T475A makes the outdoor reset at 22 F, simple, just like me :-)

Pensotti is the first installed in the USA, an R1-4 with a manual damper ala Euro model. Units sold here were 6". This guy is probably coming out this year and replaced with something yet to be determined, I'm looking very hard in Hartford.

Burner has been in since 1985 and removed twice for verification of savings, operation and testing including for CO. I've been doing monthly combustion tests (when I remember since 1973 [my home is my lab]). I also monitor number of cycles, run times and fuel oil used out of pump.

The burner finally burned up an end cone due to a chimney collapse two years ago. Liner was put in.

Burner was rebuilt using mostly Model 40 components and is working again with new (40) tube and head. I guess now it's a F5/2??

I'll see if I can figure out how to post some drawings. Thanks for asking and have a great weekend.

Darin Cook

Gary

Yes Jim did say that to us too. But he also said he never checked a Munchkin or a Vitodens. That burner design is different from the Hi-Low fire he was talking about. It is very confusing when you start looking hard at the science of all of this. I would say this though, make sure whatever you are using is venting properly and running at peak THERMAL efficiency. Find a piece of equipment that works well for you with minimal problems and run with it. I have always thought say with stack dampers that how much did you save the first time they go bad and one has to be replaced? Not much, in fact it kept the chimney cooler to boot and condensed the flue gases in the chimney longer than had to be. I will also say this when we replace a old, oversized boiler with a properly sized condensing, modulating boiler the homeowners are blown away by the savings.