Third Floor Heat

Susan_6

We have a single pipe oil fired steam system (Weil-McLein AB-668) that replaced a coal-fired-turned-oil boiler. We are remodeling our attic into living space and have some HVAC questions/problems.

Several people have told us the third floor of the house is too far to drive the steam. There was a radiator there at one time, but no heat is forthcoming; we can put in a new pipe assuming some type of clog. We settled on a mini split AC/heat for the cooling and some heat. We hear in the Boston area the heat pump will not suffice. We'd like to use the existing system for the auxillary heat. Opinions greatly appreciated.

Constantin

Steam works for me

We have a third floor room (Arlington, MA) heated by steam also. While the room isn't hot in the wintertime, it is more than adequate considering the bad insulation.

I would double-check the pipe before going through the expense of a new connection. Perhaps the old pipe was shut off somewhere in the basement? A snake may also help determine if there is a clog, and where in the pipe it is to be found. After all, someone may have capped the pipe for some unknown reason somewhere inside your house.

joe_14

you should



be able to heat the room with the steam raditor that is there it is not to high or far to run steam it all depends on the size of the pipe feeding the raditor and the total load of the entire system. i would check the contractor section of this site and find a contractor in your area who can take a look at your system. there are many very compenate contractors that use this site.steam can be very tricky if you dont pay attention to details. iam sure they can help you




good luck
joe.g.

Tony Conner

Many...

...people figure that steam behaves like water, especially when vertical distances are involved. This leads to the very common "solution" of jacking-up the steam boiler pressure to force the steam to get to second and third floor rads. Increasing the boiler pressure is responsible for a HUGE number of problems with residential steam systems. For steam (and other gases) only the length of the piping run matters, whether this distance is up, down, or sideways. If the pipe is sized and layed out correctly, there will be no problem getting steam at 2 PSIG or less from the basement to the attic.

ed wallace

3rd floor steam

susan go to find a pro on this site and get a good steam man to look at your system

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Steamhead

Sure, the steam will work

if it will work in the Empire State Building, it will work on your third floor.

Most likely you have an air venting problem, which is keeping the steam from getting all the way up the pipe to the radiator.

Check the Find a Professional page of this site to locate someone near you who can solve this problem, and any other problems you may have.

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Weezbo

listen ....

steam head telling you the truth. 3 floor steam heating is nt out of the "range"....

Susan_6

Thanks!

Thanks for all the responses -- you have given me confidence to work with our existing system. My new plan is to talk with a professional and get a system evaluation. I'm also glad to find out that my instincts were right, that we should be able to use the lovely boiler in the cellar. Finally, I had no idea the Empire State Building has steam heat.

One thing that may be of interest to some of you is a new radiator we installed in our newly remodeled sun porch. The remodel created a problem with a big ugly radiator blocking our new entertainment/china cabinets. I found a steel powder coated radiator that mounts to the wall. Is is very small taking up no floor space and little wall space and works well. Drawbacks would be the cost and it does not throw off the heat of a cast iron rad, but you can't have everything. I have no affliation or connection with the mfg or the place I bought it from www.steamradiator.com.

Wonderful, informative site. thanks.

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Water

I don't believe that up-down is "different" to left-right as far as a closed water system is concerned either. The fill pressure has already done the work of lifting--the circulator just has to overcome the restriction in the piping and orientation doesn't matter.

Three floors of any reasonable height aren't a problem with water. It's the weight (pressure) of the water at the bottom of the system that limits the practical height--not the vertical distance.

ScottMP

Susan

We use panle radiators all the time, they work great.

Please be sure the one you are looking at is available to work on steam ! Very few are.

Scott

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Tony Conner

A Great Many...

...people (including a lot of engineering/plumbing/heating folks) misunderstand this though, which is why there is often a very - as in unnecessarily - high head pump installed just to circulate water.

Constantin

I made the same mistake

of thinking of the system as an open one until I read Dans book Hydronic Radiant Heating. All of a sudden, them pumps are getting mighty small! Suits me just fine.

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Even systems that were open...

at least "open" like a gravity system where there was typically an expansion (not compression) tank as the highest element with an open overflow pipe to the outside--didn't have a problem either.

It wasn't difficult to get heat to the 3rd floor as that's where it wanted to go (warm water rises just like warm air) in the first place. The hard part was getting heat in the lower floors!

Rudy

Not to sound too scorchy, but...

In a newly built out, well insulated attic, heat loss is often at a minimum. If you are building out a 'lofty' office/room which is open to floors below without walls or rooms you may get a lot of convective heat rising from the lower floor steam radiators and BTU output of the heat heat pump may suffice for "supplemental" heat.

Of course if you're adding walls,windows, bedrooms and/or bath you can't count on heat from the lower floors and you need a primary heat source for the buildout. If so, add the needed radiation and skip the heat pump and go with standard AC.

If you have no cooling on the floor below be sure to explore "ducted" options that will fit your buildout and possibly add cooling to that floor also.

Mini-splits are great for space heating but true comfort comes from delivering heat and cooling where it's needed. Most attic buildouts allow for creative duct runs with an air handler which in my opinion beats a mini-split hands down. Of course you could add a water coil to the air handler from the steam boiler for zoned attic heat. Doing that is an art in itself.

Bottom line is...find a dependable, creative contractor from the links at this site and they will consider the options including construction, intrusiveness, cost, and comfort level and then deliver the goods.

Susan_6

Please explain

This interests me:

"Most attic buildouts allow for creative duct runs with an air handler which in my opinion beats a mini-split hands down. Of course you could add a water coil to the air handler from the steam boiler for zoned attic heat. Doing that is an art in itself."

This house was built in 1923 and has a full attic, which is the space in question. What is a "water coil to the air handler from the steam boiler for zoned attic heat"? What generates the heat -- rads, air? How can I learn more?

Rudy

Attic spaces

Usually attic spaces are built out with "wing walls" along the perimeter which create triangular "chases" for ducts, pipes, electric, or whatever from vertical walls built where the roofline meets the floor. These "chases" present an opportunity for us heating contractors to install systems around the architecture. If you opt for an air handler you will probably have to give up "valuable living space". Remember, "We live in basements, attics, and crawl spaces." Just because someone told you that you that you need a mini-split heat pump doesn't necessarily mean that it is so.

Explore your options. Someone will come up with the solution. Right know we can only give you suggestions, not answers. There are many ways to reach an end and the straight line is not always the best.

Rudy

Susan

You've provided scant info for your project. Adding radiators to a third floor is near impossible without tearing up the walls and cieling below every radiator you want to add. If construction is limited to the attic you're scr%@#wed. A hot water zone to the third floor from a steam boiler is a major wethead engineering feat and should not be engineered or installed by a homeowner.

I brought up forced air at the scrutiny of my wethead brothers just so you know the options.

If you need AC anyway, as most attic builds do, giving up a space for an airhandler and ducts is not that intrusive.

Again, find a contractor you're comfortable with and explore the options.