Quandry

Tom Wilson_2

This is my first and may be my last post on this forum but I just have to ask a few questions. I see a trend in our trade and in life in general toards extreme skepticism. I realize that we have all been burned once or twice and that certainly leeds to doubts but I guess that I am overly aware of it when reading the posts here on the Wall.
For example, why is the Munchkin so highly scrutinized but others like Burnham, WM, Peerless are all accepted for what they say. They have screwed up in the past just like everyone else? How about copper vs. PEX. Why is it a disaster when PEX leaks yet we except the fact that copper will leak and we just quietly fix it? Why do we trust the baseboard manufacturers and not the radiant manufacturers? Why do we take the word of a fellow tradesman or in some cases a total outsider over a representative from a "credible" manufacturer.
I too am guilty of these things but do not understand why. I guess that I just followed suit. Any thouhgts?

joe_14

i think

its because we are all creatures of habit,and hate to accept new ideas and new ways.in fifty years we will accept the ways of today and attack the new ideas of the future. just my humble opinion.




joe g

Kal Row

simple answer - the PRICE of the new tech gives us pause

notice how people are now spelling it vie$$mann!!!

Mark Eatherton1

Good questions....

I remember when I was about 10 years old, my dad came home from work HORRIBLY upset. It seems that they were coming out with this plastic drain waste and vent crap. He said that all you'd need to install this stuff was a saw, a ruler and a glue brush. He said the industry "craft" was going to die... When he finally passed on, he'd installed many miles of that "crap".

Not too many years ago, prior to becoming involved in the radiant floor field, I used to think that the only system worth installing was hot water base board because thats all I'd ever been exposed to. Tunnel vision to the MAX.

Later, when I started installing RFH systems, the contractor I worked for was a Burnham man through and through. In my opinion, there WAS no other boiler. When customers asked me about the German boilers, I'd ask them if they were willing to wait 6 weeks for the repair parts to show up when their controls or gas valves failed...

Now I peddle that German "crap" on a daily basis.

Way back, when the HydroPulse boilers were THE most efficient boilers on the market, I got certified to work on them due to a maintenance contract I had on a building that contained them. As soon as I got certified, I SWORE that I'd never install such a piece of crap. And as it goes for that particular line of equipment, I never did.

I used to SWEAR by the thermal efficiency of copper fin tube boilers. I've got BILLIONS of btus worth of these babies installed ALL over this fine country of ours from Buffalo NY to Anaheim CA. I thought they were the bees knees, and at the time, they were. But things change, and the common man who wants to stick by his old cast iron guns and copper finned tube convectors with nothing but copper and steel pipe is going to be over run by his competition on their way to the bank with arm loads full of cash.

As for the new technology, I think HTP, Viessmann and others are being looked at with a jaundiced eye because their technology is so radically different from "the norm".

New ventures are not without problems, and problems are to be expected. There is NO WAY that you can expose any piece of given equipment to every environmental condition that its going to see in the field, while it's still in the lab. You eventually have to turn it loose and see how it does. It how those "problems" are handled that really show the company behind the product. Theres a WORLD of difference between the HTP of today and the GlowCore of before.

If you're standing back, watching the high efficiency band wagon rolling by you, you'd beter jump on that band wagon as soon as you can, or you're going to get run over by it...

J.M.H.O.

By the way, why make this your LAST post on the Wall. It should be the first of MANY. Stick around, you might just learn something;-)

Happy Easter, and welcome to The Wall!

ME

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lchmb

my two cents

don't shoot the messenger but when I install 30 Buderus, weil mclain and Burnham and have maybe one little glitch or problem and then I install another "new" type system and of the five I have put in I have five major headache's...guess I have an issue. Not to say I haven't had serious problem's with some of the formentioned, just not every time I try. Maybe it's my bad luck but it leave's a bad taste. IMHO....and yes, I do find app's where I want to try the "new"...and I do..and I cry a month later when it break's....But I do give them the opportunity and yes they do make good...:)

joe_14

bravo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



WELL SAID ME.

joe.g.

ALH_3

human nature

It is human nature to resist change. The trades resist it as much as anyone, if not more. It seems there are a few innovators in each generation, but their ideas are not widely accepted until a new generation comes along. Plus who wants to be on the bleeding edge especially if you've been there before.

Munchkins might be getting scruitinized more than other brands for different reasons. People expect a quality boiler to have a quality jacket, not a coleman cooler, but they balk at the cost of a Vitodens.

I'll bet the pex issue stems from people who have had bad experiences with "plastic" in the past. Once you've been burned when trying something new it's normal to have a knee-jerk reaction and stick with what you know works...and lasts.

It's much easier to disprove something than to prove it. That's why we're all innocent until proven guilty. As far as "credible" manufacturers go I think all I have to mention is Raypak. My point is not all manufacturers are credible.

What if you use some new product in someone's home and it fails? I think a lawsuit will not be far behind, as has been proven in the past by a certain rubber hose manufacturer.

Weezbo

hello.

just dropped by to say hello....you have binked th nail on the head with the observation.we are in a new yeaar new decade new Century,our private belifes are what have helped us make it here,alot of what we have glimmered is based on seeing right and doing it.....in the doing came a bunch of what might be called Experience. that expereince is a valuable tool.there is alot of self satisfaction and pride based on our OWN experience....not to knock the next guy however he isnt living our life. When we do our own thinking on a subject and it is quietly the best damm thing since the toaster we are welll really enamoured with it.now we are the ones setting the example,now we are the ones setting the Standard,will all our skills die with us? not likely....By sharing the time of day with others in the trade we pretty much ensure the techniques, designes, stradgies, workmanship and integrity will roll out from each of us like the ripples on a crystal clear pool of water . meditate on water.

Tom Wilson_2

Thanks

Thanks for the well thought out reply. I have been reading the Wall for over 3 years but have never posted before. I will continue to read and maybe post a bit. I find that keeping my eyes and ears as well as my mind open and my mouth or in this case, fingers shut is the best way to learn.

jerrygb46_5

Raypak??

Can anyone expand the feeling about raypak boilers???Good or bad??

Constantin

And it's not just the contractors

Many companies suffer from tunnel vision and NIH (Not Invented Here) syndrome. I see these situations daily as a consultant while developing products or improving operational efficiency. One of the the tricks of consulting is to coax the recalcitrant to come up with your idea "on their own", so that they'll accept it.

For all the hype that many of these industries spread via their marketing departments, the actual pace of adopting new technologies is surprisingly slow. For example, why is it 6-8 years after Bluetooth came out that phone companies, car companies, etc. are only now starting to show products with hands-free phone technology? What about other car technologies such as integrating the alternator and starter, 42VDC systems to do electronic valve timing, etc?

In an industry where call-backs can break a contractor, I can see why folks are reluctant to try something new, or do their best to prevent new things from invading their trades. For example, it is my understanding that PEX is not allowed for potable water use in Cambridge, MA even though there is no scientific reason to justify that decision - in fact, you can use plastic all the way to the house from the street. But once it's inside, it has to be copper. If true, I can only think of one reason why copper still prevails in Cambridge, and it has to do with protecting one's turf.

Similarly, you can go over to Hvac-talk and listen to AC contractors complain about the evils of Goodman destroying their cushy conditions. Like plastic PVC pipe, Goodman is commoditizing the AC industry. This is good for the consumer (a well installed system costs less) and bad for the folks who sell "brands" that spend their money differently (advertise, buy distributors, etc.) It will be interesting to see how the industry will shape up... whether the Lennox strategy of controlling distribution is more helpful than hindering compared to the free-wheeling-and-dealing model Goodman has ridden to the #3 spot in the industry. How about Carriers attempts with the Infinity system to control who can and cannot install or diagnose their systems? However, the continued success of Goodman may make the industry change its strategy.

Like PVC and now PEX, advances in building technology are commoditizing certain aspects of the building trades. On the other hand, they also make life a lot easier for the folks who know what they're doing. Furthermore, no new technology I know of has removed the need for folks to use their head or to not learn skills. This is what makes the difference between hacks and good installers. The challenge is to convince the customers that a qualified installer is a much more cost-effective solution in the long run than a hack (amateur or professional).

Every opportunity entails a certain degree of risk. The trick is to weight the benefits and the costs before jumping in. In a few years, it will appear self-evident that one action or the other was the right one (20-20 hindsight is perfect for that). Even if you do not decide to jump on a particular bandwagon, at least try to understand what it's about, why folks are pushing the technology, etc. Otherwise, you may wake up one morning with a business that suffers death by a thousand cuts. I cannot think of a more demoralizing situation.

steve gates

hey Tom ME is

"right on". Mostly because of this place i've jumped on the high efficiency band wagon. Having a tendecy to want do be the best helped but without the encouragement found here it would be so much tougher....

I go to every training class I can. I still make mistakes with this new "crap". In fact I'll be calling viessmann in the morning and I'm sure they can talk me tru it. Nothing ventured nothing gained.

I lurk and learn and sometimes even know enough to pass on somethings.

A big thanks to all!

Kal Row

i used it only once, for pool heater, no problems

Mark Eatherton1

Go back...

and look at the heat exchanger. You won't be impressed with what happens on the fire side. I know I wasn't.

ME

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ed wallace

new technology

to constantin pex tubing is still not allowed in ma. for domestic water use except on a test bases in each city or town not just the peoples republic of cambridge on another note in 1 post you are a tenant in another post you are a home owner so which one are you ? also you said you have radiant heat but then you said you have steam heat ??

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Constantin

Hi Ed!

I've meant to contact you to gage your interest in our heating and cooling retrofits...but fighting fires on the job , the construction site, etc. have kept me too busy. Thanks for the info on the PEX! Can plastics be used for fire suppression or is that still the domain of metals even in residential construction?

To clarify, yes I am a tenant in Arlington (w/steam heat). I'm also a homeowner in Cambridge (a 1872 Mansard in the process of being gutted, hence I don't live there right now). The "new" home will have radiant heat. However, all of that is moot until we have our special permit, have replaced the extant (failed) foundation, etc.

I meant to ask you over at HVAC-Talk before being declared persona non grata by Don for, among other things, being "arrogant or insensitive" and allegedly posting "critical" remarks about his program... Considering what a search over at HVAC-Talk or here turns up, I'm still scratching my head how he came to this epiphany. But it's his board and if he doesn't want to share the sandbox, that's his perogative.

Anyway, the Cambridge house will have about 5,100 sq ft of heated space. You can review my HVAC-Calc file if you wish, as I imagine it will save you some time. Assuming pretty good infiltration protection and making assumptions re: the HRVs, our heat load comes to about 126kBTU and cooling weighs in at 76kBTU. The IDWH would be on the primary loop. Perhaps a 60 Gallon Triangle Tube Phase III?

Considering our location and the local prices of fuel choices, I want to stick with oil boilers, which I gather is a specialty of yours. So far either a Vitola or two Monitor FCX's would seem to make the most sense. Interested? Contact me by e-mail.

John@Reliable_9

"Why do we take the word of a fellow tradesman or in some cases a total outsider over a representative from a "credible" manufacturer." I like that,why? the fellow tradesman has nothing to gain only want he/she has seen. Not to paint a broad brush but how many times will a rep "really" tell you what's what. Sometimes they aren't even told about problems from thier higher ups, but we can see a pattern happening just by talking with other tradesman. John@Reliable