Saving system

singh

Just picked up a set of drawings friday for a 1000 sq.ft addition.
New addition will have great room and kitchen,Old kitchen being moved and plumbing also upgraded.

House about four years old.
Has Hot water BB now,boiler is burnham V84 looks good,will need some near piping rearrangements (pump is on return...)
Homeowner has not moved in yet but,I was told HO wants to UPGRADE to forced hot air, maybe hydro-air, with a/c. I'm trying to save system add radiant to addition, And possibly HI-V ac in existing and addition.
I will only bid on plumbing and hydronics,sub out a/c.
HO seems set on forced air. I am not good at selling but how do I convince HO to keep system,pro and cons vs. forced air, hydro -air handlers are better choice but I feel radiant is the best,for addition keep BB in existing.
Money does not seem to be problem , I mean they are willing to throw away good boiler.
Is customer always right?,Do you give what they want?
What would you guys do?

Steamhead

First thing I'd do

is get some photos of the inside of an air duct after a few years' use. Ask them if they've heard of "sick building syndrome", and whether they would want to breathe the air that came thru a duct like this.

Then, if possible, take them to a place where a radiant system is in use. Have them experience the comfort.

Finally, compare the duct size of a hi-v system with that of a standard duct system. Show them how much space they will save, even if the hi-v is only used for a/c.

And if all that fails, invite them to the Wall!

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Rudy

air

I have done a few scorced air units and this is what people complain about. 1. every spring and fall they have to open and close ducts to cold and hot rooms. This balances the rooms for solar gain.... 2. dry air, nose bleeds, static and dust. they have to learn about putting moisture back in the air. This means the become experts on maintaning humidifyers and very good air filters (the better the filter the more they cost)and I have not seen a cust. yet that wants to touch the humidifyer. This is the price of keeping dust down and people healthy. This has to be done monthly (heat and a/c has floor returns very dirty). Comfort should be first, the time it takes to recover every heating cycle gives you chills with hot air. Most of the reasons for the cust. to put heat and a/c together is they think it's better and cheaper. MONEY is more important than you think to them and most people think less is more. If they buy two things in one it's cheaper and easyer. We have to show how a little more now will save later not just money but time. I would keep it simple but work with them. A hydro air would be nice, if set up right but they might be sorry if they don't like to do stuff to it. Shoot for the gold. hope this helps.

singh

I know I've seen pics of dirty and dusty ducts,but I can't remember where.
Anyone know where I can find some?

Weezbo

Nam aste

when money is no object.... well..:) fire up the computer to Karo cooling mats. you are a hydronic guy so sell them "Space conditioning" cooling and heating! suppliment some fancy japanese individual split system ac, go hrv and defy the scorched air phylosopy it sure seems like lots of over kill for smaller homes though,maybe chirp up the viessman if they like spending money:)

John@Reliable_9

Depends on where job is?

I see allot of high-end homes in the Boston area.
They design the heating system around a/c. Why because central a/c is "cool" and it shows "we have money"! I explain to customers this simple way, does it make sense to design your heating system that will be used 8 or 9 months ayear based on the a/c side that might only be used two or three months ayear. I also explain why builders like them, cheaper to install, but operateing cost to customer is more but builder doesn't care it's not his.

Bob Gagnon plumbing and heating

my favorite picture

for selling radiant. It's from my mothers house after 30 years. bob

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John@Reliable_9

Best thing about waf is..........

you don't have to yell upstairs when dinner is done,cause they can smell it! nothing like fried fish smell in the whole house lol

Rudy

Dirty Duct

I hope that was a return!!

Singh,
Convincing someone that any hydronic heating system is better than forced air in all aspects is no brainer easy. On new installs hyd. heat and mechanical cooling can easily cost three times as much (usually more) than a ducted heat/cool setup. THAT'S the hard sell to a customer. Your people are half way there. It should be a slam dunk.
I've found high velocity AC systems to outperform conventional systems in a big way. You're comfortable at a higher setpoint temp because of better dehumidification. Sound familiar? AC-only ductwork is less costly and obtrusive because you only consider heat gain, not loss. Heat/cool systems require much more elaborate return ducting for 'cold air returns'. This could alter some interior architecture in a big way through the existing house.
Even changing out the boiler to handle the larger connected load and adding a mini duct system(s) would still seem to be less expensive than tearing everything out and adding fwh. Soffits, patching old BB pipe penetrations, etc. all add up. Money talks.

Bill_14

Try this link...

http://images.google.com/images?q=dirty+air+duct+pictures&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi&sourceid=tipimg