Viessmann Fuel Savings

Ted_5

Sweet Vitodreams from now on!
This is in Menasha, WI at the office of the Menasha Electric Utility Company. This was a lead from G.A. Larson Appleton branch. I took the Vitodens display there and met with the engineer and building manager. After that meeting, they were sold on the project. Luckily the buildings [now 12 yrs old] heating system was designed for energy efficiencies,160 deg. on design days going to V.A.V. boxes. The existing boilers[Hydro-Pulse by Hydro-Therm] at that time were suppose to be at leased 88%. After a few heating seasons they started having major issues with the boilers and the building manager said " it was a 12 year nightmare trying to keep them running" also he thought the fuel consumption was high. The existing 3 boilers were 175,000 each for a total of 525,000 and with help from the engineer and the added efficiantcie of the Vitodens they determined that 2 Vitodens 200 15-60 at 230,000 each for a total of 460,000 would work. I also suggested that they resize the system pumps to give the system a 30 degree delta T so the Vitodens will always condense.
The results are fenominal! After the first 3 months in use[Nov,Dec,Jan] the system is yielding an average of 35.5% therms used per/degree day. That's real good considering we only add 6% combustion efficiencies. Needless to say the building manager is very pleased! He even said to me "It's sad but I actually look forward to getting the next gas bill" He is very willing to have people call him or let them in to look at the boilers. We have a new Viessmann partner!

Ted

S Ebels

That's right on

With what I've been seeing when a Vitodens is installed as a replacement. AFUE DOES NOT tell the whole story. FACT!! You're showing a reduction of 30 to 35% in therms per degree day, which is really the only valid comparison. The kicker is that the Hydropulse boilers were/are supposed to be condensing type appliances just like the Vito. On paper, according to the specs for efficiency (AFUE numbers), you shouldn't see much more than a 4-6% reduction. So much for AFUE numbers. They are just a kinda/sorta guideline.

steve l

pulse

I'm not a fan of the pulse boiler, but they would also have been more efficient, if they had been run with a larger delta T, anything up to 60f. North America seems to be fixated on the twenty degree delta T, and with condensing boilers in general they work a lot more efficiently even at higher temperature's if you use lower pump speed's and higher deltas. I have heard of some incredible gas savings with the Vitodens here in Manitoba, when replacing conventional cast boilers, some that are paying back in less than two years.

R. Kalia

That's a strange set of data in the .doc file. Why is the therms/degree-day so much lower (efficiency higher) in warmer months compared to colder months, both before and after? There may be a small effect due to cooler water, but this is a huge effect.

If there is any other gas use (e.g. for domestic hot water) the therms/degree-day should actually go up in warmer months.

John Jr

Changing Delta T

Now can't you change the delta T with the pump speed in the Vitoden Comfortrol programing? Slow the pump down.

Mark Eatherton1

Modulation...

is the key. Short cycle inefficiency is virtually a thing of the past with this new technology. The lower the load, the higher the thermal efficiency.

This ain't your grampas Buick any more...

The Pulse concept was just a stepping stone on the path to super efficiency. The concept was there, all it was missing is the ability to reset its operating temperature and the ability to modulate its burner down, which I don't think is feasable given the reed valve technology.

Good job Ted. If I were in your shoes, I'd run to the local press with this story. You KNOW there are a WHOLE lot of apartment complexes out there singing the gas cost increase blues...and you have the solution in your hand!

ME

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Darin Cook_2

Assumed Ficticious Useless Efficiency

ME, I was told that you went to the NCI combustion course so I think you would agree that the only true, real efficiency numbers we can calculate in the field are thermal efficiencys of the installed equipment. Which is exactly what you are proving in your "lab". The Vie$$man is a fantastic piece of equipment, although you never know what temps it will be running at. The Vitodens definetly has a mind of its own. After going to the NCI course I do not buy the 2-stage lie anymore, but the modulating burners on the Vie$$man and the Munchy just seem to wring the condensate right out and the dollars right with it. I am looking forward to September when Buderus releases its wall hung gas condensing boiler. Which I was told has been on the market over there for many years and is a very solid proven design. Keep up all the great testing, it is always interesting to see what you are up to in the "test lab".

Kal Row

the Vie$$man (love those $$ - it's the perfect trademark)

has the extra advantage, of the recovering the combustion's radiant heat as well - makes it really hard to beat

R. Kalia

key to what?

> Modulation is the key. Short cycle inefficiency is virtually

> a thing of the past with this new technology. The

> lower the load, the higher the thermal

> efficiency.


(a) The higher efficiency in warmer weather shown in the data occurs both before and after the Viessmann installation.

(b) If short cycle inefficiency is a thing of the past, the efficiency will not be affected by load, but why should it be 50% HIGHER with lower load?

Mark Eatherton1

Is the key

to part load efficiency. As it pertains to pervious consumption, that consumption is probably skewed by solar gain, internal gains and the use of ventilating equipment.

As with any heating question, the only right answer is "it depends..."

ME

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S Ebels

Pump speed

Yes you can. It can be run from 100% down to at least 40% if not less. I have one running at 45% right now with a nice 40* delta. It keeps the Vito making condensate in nearly all conditions.

Ted_5

Now I get it!

> has the extra advantage, of the recovering the

> combustion's radiant heat as well - makes it

> really hard to beat

Ted_5

Now I get it!

The reason for the $ sign in Vie$$mann is to show how much money they save in the long run!

Ted

Mark Hunt

Still trying to figure out


why a Viessmann indirect is four times as much as any other indirect made. I won't post the reason I was given at the Rhode Island plant.

We just finished our first Vitodens install, and I must say that it is a fine piece of equipment. No argument here.

We had to have 3 Vitocell 300's delivered to the job before we got one that was not damaged. Viessmann and the rep stepped up to the plate and made it happen. Thanks folks!

Now the folks that we installed this super high efficiency boiler for have two SUV's. Husband, wife, two little girls. No hauling of plywood or sheetrock in this household.

Did they buy the Viessmann for efficiency, or did they buy it to impress themselves?

I'll give you three guesses and the first two won't count.

Mark H

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Kal Row

and i thought the $$ was because

they got you coming and going...
hi purchase price, hi parts price