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Old Code Question----Brought back to the future!
Robert O'Connor_7
Member Posts: 688
A good friend in the SCORCHED AIR biz installed a W/M EG-40 gas/steam back in 2000. The Plumbing Inspector failed the job & gave verbal orders that the code was not met. After several calls (unanswered) to find out why, he contacted me. I looked over the job and made the repair based on MY interpretation of this section (I removed the factory boiler drain & installed a full port ball valve in the location for the drain) After another failed inspection and yet again no communication with the Inspector (more unanswered calls) I advised him to call the Inspectors boss (the Construction Official) The CO seemed O.K but couldn't overide the Plumb/Insp., Now the Plumbing Insp. contacted me with his nose out of joint. " I want the SKIM tapping piped with a nipple & valve & elbow & plugged" was his take on this code section as he interpreted it. "Because the new boiler has a probe type LWCO & not a #67 MM. I want this additional piping done!". Anyway my Scorched Air buddy refused and I agreed and so we all went to the Board of Appleals in that County (also a little history, the Inspector that initiated this never even appeared, and sent a different Inspector who I know & who acually agreed with me, but was sent there to try the case) After about 3 months the appleals board wrote a determination we all thought was in OUR favor. Well now the Municipal Building Dept (2+ yrs. later). is calling and writing letters to the HO saying just the opposite. Any suggestions? And or how would YOU interpret this? By the way in my neck of the woods everyone who is anyone in the code enforcement biz is siding with my Scorched Air friend..Thank You!... Robert O'Connor/NJ
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Comments
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The bottom line is
the guy is on a power trip. Whether you are right or wrong does'nt matter. You can't argue with them, a small victory for you being right will make the next job that he has to inspect for you pure hell. He will tear it apart looking for something to be wrong. I learned a long time ago just to do what they ask and move on. Most inspectors around here don't know what they are looking at when it comes to the Mechanicals, anyway. Sorry I did not answer your code question!
Andy Morgan
R. Morgan Mechanical, LLC0 -
walk away
I would install the items requested and walk away. He and you both know who won, he just cheated is all...Let it go...it's over0 -
NJ and the Mechanical Code
Bob,
Have your friend contact:
Tom Pitcherello at the NJ Department of Consumer Affairs in Trenton. Tom is the first step in making improper actions by dumb plumbing inspectors - "smart." He is THE State of NJ Code Enforcement arbiter of official mis-deeds of municipal inspectors.
His email address is:tpitcherello@dca.state.nj.us
Tom's phone number is 609-984-7609. He will bring a renagade inspector into line - pronto!
Share with me in private who the guy is and what town he's in and I may also be able to help.
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Wrong Approach LCHMB
Never let libel or slander go unchecked - ever. By suggesting the work was done in violation of code suggests an impropriety on the contactors part. It implies your friend did something illegal. Never back down from an inspector when he is wrong. If the inspector lost at the county appeals board, and is still suggesting they erred, and writes that to the H.O., he is guilty of a minor crime that must be addressed.
The county boards' ruling should have been in writing. An inspector who does not abide by an Appeals Board ruling is guilty of dereliction of duty and can be discharged for such a breach.
Giving in - solves nothing.
P.S., I know the UCC in NJ like the back of my hand. No inspector may give "verbal notice". A written notice of violation MUST be given - as well as the exact statute quoted, that notes the specific violation being cited.
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Old Code & Old Thinking
I would love nothing more than to just move on, but we can't get a straight answer out of this guy. For all we know he will continue to find erroneous stuff to besmirch the Scorched Air guys good name. The technical assistant from the borough called the homeowner again today (after my original post) and told him a extremely dangerous condition exists at your house and that we don't want to come there (meaning the fire dept.) and have to take DEAD PEOPLE out of there. Seriously! DEAD PEOPLE..To add insult to injury, I recently hired on a young man that was in this guys class (he teaches @ the local Community College) He used this case in his class. Why I feel so strongly about this is because I'm a working official too,part time(CO & Plumb. Insp) in another municipality and in our state we are under the guise of the Uniform Construction Code. What I find from many who contact me in advance of doing work is "what do you want". Sure doesn't sound UNIFORM to me... Thank You for your comments guys... Robert O'Connor/NJ0 -
Agree with you Ken
I had to ask for the specific code number from an inspector just once , years ago . The guy became livid , yelling at me saying I was here for him , he was not there for me . When I explained that we were both actually there for the homeowner , he went into a tantrum , told me he just might kick us off the job . Never got the specific code , but it had to do with how many bollards are needed to protect a boiler in a garage . He wanted 4 , we had 3 .
Always ask for the specific code number nicely , for future reference .0 -
Now that sounds
like slander . Dead people from not having a skim valve ?
One thing to check , although I haven't installed a Weil gas steamer in a while - I believe the instructions say to remove all the skim nipples and fittings , and plug the port . I guess a local code might specify a valve permanently there , but I seriously doubt it . Good luck Robert .0 -
Code specific - in writing required
An inspector is required to provide the specific code violation in writing. And so he should.
I once had an inspector try to tell me he could flunk my work for any reason he saw fit & then not tell me why. I had my copy of BOCA in the truck and managed to go through the code officials official duties with him.
A Habitat for Humanity job with two timber framed houses that were to be completed in 36 hours. From a foundation to move-in condition! The plumbing inspector shows up and, not knowing the code - flunks my loop venting - says we have to run an exposed vent up through the interior. I get my code book - he refuses to stay while we read it together! Slaps a stop work order on the project. The builder's foreman is a neighbor to a county comish. Calls him & he arrives. The Comish & I go off to a quiet spot and he gets a quick lesson on lopp venting - he gets it. He calls up the plumbing inspector & gives him 10 minutes to get to the job site. Once there, we three go off to "discuss" the problem. The plumbing inspector refuses to back down. The comish asks me to step away for a minute. Next thing I know the plumbing inspector comes up to me & says everything has been approved! I ask the comish what transpired & he says he simply gave the PI five minutes to decide if he wanted to remain a plumbing inspector(G).
In your case, it's too late to back down. Call in the dogs. Wish I'd known - I was just in NJ for an Italian wedding. Some of dose guys culda "spoke" to him. The aunt couldn't be there - she was murdered in the WTC when terrorists struck on 9/11. The groom goes to Iraq in Jan.
BTW, if you read the BOCA code book, the inspector gets quite a bit of legal protection - unless he acts with malice - in which case he gets to pay for his own legal defense and he's on his own. Your guy sure seems to be treading on some very thin ice.
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Just a note of support
I don't even know what a skim valve is. However, your side of the story certainly seems to be indicating something seriously out of whack with respect to this inspector.
The sad truth is that a certain percentage of folks are attracted to jobs with "authority" for all the wrong reasons. Psychological testing allegedly weeds out the most egregious cases for police work... I doubt, however, that such testing exists for plumbing inspectors. As my father would point out, Nazi concentration camp guards were volunteers, "ordinary people" given an extraordinary opportunity to live out their sadistic fantasies.
Coming back to the USA though, I have had nothing but good experiences with the local town officials so far. They were friendly, helpful, and responded quickly to a number of issues we encountered, ranging from getting through the binding reviews for our house reconstruction (historic district) to responding to flood damage when someone decided to restart our water service without checking with the nonexistant occupants first. Water pipes don't generally like subzero conditions, that's why we had drained the building.
I hope my luck holds out and that you and your friend will be vindicated. Furthermore, perhaps the inspector watchdog can pull the inspector back into line. However, it usually takes a lot to get someone transferred/fired, even if they're outrageous. Unfortunately, a degree of retribution on future jobs is a very real possibility. Some people just cannot admit that they're wrong. However, perhaps this hack of an inspector will start issuing written comments since he/she is exposing him/herself to very real liability.
Now I'll go off, order some more books and learn what a skim tapping is.0 -
like i said it's pathetic...
we will write a mistake of grammer or spelling and next time the code books come out we can make a Revision to the previous code....I belive it is to justify New Code Books Sales. here comes the inspector now! lets ask Him.... it says blah blah blah blsh blsh blah blah blah... ok so how many balustrades do you need if the garage door is over 8 " high? well....in my opinion and my experience i have never Seen Or even Heard of a garage door that Was Less than 8 inches high! Oh Oops! heres the deal. You do your own thinking and let the inspector prove hes the big wheel until after the inspection and then fine tune them. when you are given a notice the mechanical failed because there were no screws in the dishwasher brackets to the counter top... It is Pathetic....I have no idea what on earth the valve nip 90 and plug is about either...I had a spiro therm on a header and then the guysays well does this have an internal check against air addmittance? i said i dont need this correct? he says well yah you dont need one so i walk up turn a 1/4 turn ball valve beneath it and say that answer your question?0 -
I'm Very confused
I just read up on what skim tappings are allegedly used for, the removal of oil from the top of boiler water in steam heaters. Fair enough, they may be useful if surging is an issue (which it may or may not be).
Could someone enlighten me as to how not having a full-port valve in the skim tapping would cause folks to get killed? ...if the boiler does not surge during comissioning, it stands to reason that there are no additional opportunities for oil to get into the system, so no skimming would be necessary, right? Or did I miss something.0 -
PAH
We don't use BOCA in NJ. Our adopted code is the same one used by the federal government. NSPC (National Standard Plumbing Code) as promoted by the PHCC.
Loop vents are verboten in NJ, but all your points are well taken!
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Non BOCA now too - in most parts
IPC or so they tell me(G). Used to be BOCA though & that's the code referenced in the opening post too.
We're about to get a state-wide code here in PA, but they're letting each municipality to opt out or in as they see fit. In addition, all of the funky little clauses remain in tact - like one twp allows only fernco below ground, while the neighboring one only no-hub couplings - or that any commercial bldg (no matter the DFU load) must be served by a 6" line, but that same line may be reduced where it enters the bldg to 4" (they evidently believe poop expands as it leaves a building).
Why no loop vents? Do they allow oversizing the drain to compensate for venting? BOCA vents or air admittance valves?
Doesn't it seem silly that one set of rules can't be adopted without every local plumbing inspector thinking it's necessary to put their own thumb print on the alterations?
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Agree. The appeals board or...
its superior, (apparently in NJ Mr Pitcherello of the NJ Dept of Consumer Affairs) will NOT like being told they were wrong, and will RAPIDLY tire of this guy, to your ultimate benefit.
It's not like he got back to you promptly originally and said "I simply want x & y but not y" even if it was perhaps a little beyond the code, but instead let it go to appeal and was overruled.0 -
Code Question??
Thank you all for your support. My Scorched Air friend received word AGAIN this morning (pretty pushy) that an inspector will be out tommorrow to inspect the fire sub-code portion of this job & by not allowing entry violates the Right of Entry provision of the UCC. Can anyone guess who that could be..........Yup! same guy. In with all the posts of supports however we got off topic by talking about the Inspector & procedures. I kinda got a handle on this. My friend however would like clarification of M-608.1 (I know this is the old code, but it WAS the code at the time). Question?? Are any of you required to permenently pipe the skim tapping and leave it for future service????? Mr. Inspector has used this case in his teachings, now I want to do the same (after the fact and show him the posts of his peers) to rebutt his argument, him saying " Every student in MY class sided with ME" (meaning the inspector) My comment to him about this was, and by the way was the last communication I personally had with him, was, "I think if I were in YOUR class I'd probably side with you too" (So I don't fail) He did not like that and said he feels very strongly about this issue & I cut him off and said " I respect you position however I and my friend don't, and with all due respect, we'll see you in court. (and he never showed)... Robert O'Connor/NJ0 -
Mr. O'Connor
Just curious as to what town or at least county in NJ you are talking about. I being a contractor in Monmouth and cean counties run into certain inspectors in certain towns that have their own ideas....or way they want things done. We have found that it is usually in our best interest to do as they say...as long as it isnt crazy. That being said I wish you good luck with this and would love to know the outcome. Sad part is the homeowner is in the middle. I wonder what they think? The problem I see is that all towns do things a little differant and that makes it very difficult for us contractors. We actually have a book in our office with town names and what they require for differant jobs. Some towns take two weeks to tell us they need something else in the packet...I know they have a certain amount of time legally but for a boiler change out or "scorcher" furnace thats crazy....One last question..in NJ is it true that in an emergency situation you have 72 hours to file?
Thanks
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Yes
You have 72 hours to get a permit in place - for emergency work.
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Yes but...
He refers to BOCA Mechanical - not BOCA plumbing code.
NJ uses NSPC for plumbing and BOCA mechanical for boilers, vents, chimneys etc.
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Duly noted
I saw that in the original post & dusted off my 1990 copy of BOCA mechanical. As you'd expect, the numbers don't jive. Don't know why something like P-912.1 can't simply remain the same year after year, but that's no doubt why I'm not a code official.
I'm still stuck in the 70's when it comes to knowing the code numbers by memory(G).
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Yesterday......
My Scorched air friend got his inspection yesterday. The inspector first asked the homeowner "Why am I here??" then proceeded to go into the basement where my scorched air friend & I were waiting for him. The inspector then asked the contractor "What am I here for??". "You tell me", was his reply. "Your the guy that appealed my ruling & then after you lost the case, never called for the final inspection". Wait a minute my friend said. "You lost, not us" The building department generated another violation notice and made several calls to set this inspection up. The inspector then asked who would be doing the maintence on the equipment & the contractor said "the homeowner". The inspector then started on the skim tapping speal & how that was a part of the M-608.1 "Just read the commentary it tells you you have to pipe the skim tapping" Now my friend looking like a deer in the headlights kinda look was slow to react, so I butted in. "Excuse me, I have every piece of literature for the boiler, the code with the commentary right here, as well as the decision from the Board of Appeals (I had it all laid out on top of the HO's washer & dryer just in case). Maybe you can point out exactly where it says this, or maybe perhaps your mistaken because 3 years have passed I said. "You must be O'Connor" "Yes I am" He proceeded to say how I was creating a problem by initiating this and by making trouble by calling the state on him. I'm merely protecting my friend from you and your wayward ways that go so way over the top & by giving all inspectors in our great state a bad name by your actions. With this he says I'm not here to argue with you. You might next time keep your opinions to your self and don't interfear with the inspection process. I laughed at him and was begining to give it to him again when he pulled a approval sticker out of his pocket ( which by the way he already left one the first time) proceed to mumble something, signed it and left. This isn't done by the way, I've contacted Regulatory affairs within the state and will probably get some action soon. Was this a great big pain in the a*^%, sure it was/is, but allowing this kind of behavoir unbecoming of a public official is never to be tolerated. I'm one and I strive for exellence. Never be afraid to stand up for your rights..... Thank you all for your support!.......Robert O'Connor/NJ0 -
U--GO
U go Bobby Boy U go.Rights right stand your ground. Best Wishes J. Lockard0 -
Hat's Off to an ethical inspector!
Bob O'Connor, a licensed State of NJ plumbing inspector, went to bat for a contractor who was being jerked around by another inspector - and made a difference. Bob supports code enforcement to a tee. He also knows the diffeence between enforcement - and harassment.
My hat is off for enforcement officials who do their job and do it well. What Bob did however, transcends that endeavor. He went out of his way to make sure a fellow inspector followed proper procedures, and did so for a contractor, the homeowner and the betterment of the plumbing/mechanical inspection process in NJ.
Thanks Bob for being part of the solution - and not the problem.
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Tip of the Hat
Robert, that's a great thing you did and I wish more folks would stand up to misdeeds in their profession. While we usually have choices when it comes to employment, hiring a contractor, etc. officials can, and occasionally do, make life miserable. Usually, officials are simply enforcing the rules.
In this case, it appears that the inspector overstepped his bounds and went down a much more sinister path, from frightening the homeowner to teaching a class on the very subject. It is heartening to hear that the state is willing to pursue the matter with you and I hope justice will prevail in the end.
However, the most important aspect is you standing up to the inspector instead of simply acquiesing. When I read about abuses in police departments, the blue wall, etc. I wish there were more folks like you that ensure everyone is ruled by the law, not just the civilians.0 -
Final Roundup
I'm humbled by your words of support. Thank you! Now I gotta get back to the real important things like coloring Easter Eggs with my 2+ yr old daughter. God Bless......Robert O'Connor/NJ0 -
bailing out plumbers
hey o copper head don't forget who bails out the plumbers not the police,fireman,carpenter,or the electrical wizards,but its the AIRMAN we fly with the greatest of ease,when the plumbers fall of the trapezz.AND get it going,with a jumper or two will get it on. So you can admire our wizdom and work with us THANKS FOR KEEPING US IN THE AIR AND I KNOW A GOOD INSPECTOR TO F32COLD@AOL.COM0 -
Bob,
You and I both know the isnpector failed to do his job by failing to cite the chapter and verse he knew wasn't there.
Tom Pitcherello and the Bureau of Regulatory Affairs should be notified and charges brought. Unfortunately, I did this twice and both times the problem just evaporated into thin air. Then there's the story about Linden... They have there own appeals board, bypassing the county. I took it to Superior Court on second appeal and found Linden had the case heard by the former city attorney!
Cost my insurance company six grand. I was about to appeal to a higher court and my lawyer filed conflict of interest charge against the judge and the thing just died of tedium and gross incompetence. Doing business in NJ is a joke. It is called the UCC (uniform construction code) for no apparentr reason. With a handful of exceptions, nothing is uniform and all towns are run like fifedoms.
Venting is good for the sould lad.
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O-airman, O-airman
Show me the wings! Pull the vett out and lets make some duct work wings. Hi Rudy!....Robert O'Connor/NJ0 -
wanna move?
Man, I wish you lived in PA. I'm meeting with reporters on Thursday night to go over the codes debacle in my area. Some poop's gonna be thrown at the fan.
Thanks for not backing down. That took real courage.
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code limits
Pa recently overturned 3 local ordinances that were amendments to the new IRC. They stated the IRC was comprehensive enough and these local code Nazis were way out of line. Their requirements were unnecessary and unfounded. This is a major victory! It serves notice to AHJ's all over the country they cannot burden the people indiscrimately with frivolous codes.
I teach my people they are Code Enforcers--not code legislators. That's the function of state& local councils. You always have the right to know chapter and verse where a AHJ is quoting from. Pin him down. If he tries to shut you down, go to his boss. If he's a jerk, go to the State. You also have various trade organizations that can and should support you. If they don't, tell them to forget your dues.
Properly applied, codes serve a valuable function. However, they are administered by unelected officials. Keep 'em honest.0 -
Amen brother, been
fighting that battle for years! If their wromg, their wrong and that excrement about 'I work in this town all the time' si just that.
A bully is a bully until he's faced down, then most of my experience has proven he's a poorly educated hack, FACT!
Codes keep good people good, hacks will always be outlaws!0 -
Ken...
Fifedoms? I must admit, I had to look that one up. You think NJ is bad, you should see the action going ons in PA. What a joke. As far as that inspector (I'm unfortunatly not at liberty to devulge the DCA's action, but can tell you it wasn't pleasent for him) He got what he deserved and is one call shy of total license revocation.. Robert O'Connor/NJ0 -
Dave..
Hold your ground (And yer TEMPER!). Keep me in the loop. I'm interested as to the result(s),and would/will help if possible. Thanks!...Robert O'Connor/NJ0 -
Firedragon..
Right back at ya! Thanks for the support...Robert O'Connor/NJ0 -
Perhaps you would have
known the word, had I spelled it properly (;-o)
It's fiefdom, not fifedom.
Let's blame Holohan. Hey Dan? **** is the spell checker feature when ya need it?
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Hey Dave,
see if you can find out why PA is the second largest oilheated state in Oildom and they are so in the woods about codes it's pathetic.
I keep getting more and more work down there and it's all preventable if they were just using and enforcing NFPA31 and NFPA211, AMAZING!
In FACT, see if you can find out if it will continue, I need the work :-)0
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