Fireman overcome by CO in station

Mark Hunt

http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=11237263&BRD=1697&PAG=461&dept_id=44551&rfi=6

Mark H

<A HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=238&Step=30">To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"</A>

Boilerpro_3

Unbelievable!

Of all people, they should know better.

Boilerpro

lchmb

shouldn't we all

Cheap price to sleep a little sounder at night. On top of putting them in it also remind's us that we need to replace batteries to co and smoke detector's on a regular basis..

John R. Hall

Wow

Thank God they are okay. All it takes is one incident to make change -- as long as the people are still alive to make the change.

Wardner

It is quite believable

Those who enforce the law are usually the first to break the law. Who is around to slap their wrists when they fail to install CO alarms?

When was the last time you saw a cop on the interstate doing the speed limit?

Larry (from OSHA)

and what next?

OK, so these fellows were quite lucky. But what next? By OSHA criteria, at least here in Minnesota, they were one guy away from what we call a catastrophic event. (3 employees hospitalized for an "event"). So, that said, they still were way over the OSHA limit for CO exposure of 200 ppm for 15 minutes (fed levels) or for 5 minutes here in Minnesota. I suspect that there will not be any OSHA investigation or citations from this nearly life ending occurance. (And by our guidelines, that is most likely the appropriate thing.)

So, what do you think would be appropriate? OSHA requires that employees be trained on the hazards in the workplace. CO is definitely a typical hazard in the workplace for firefighters. I bet that they have had annual training that meets the minumum requirements for OSHA purposes. BUT, here we still have a number of trained people falling over and apparently just by luck, someone figures out that maybe it's bad air.

Alright, at this point I'm not sure where I'm going with this, except that here is a case of supposedly people with a heightened awareness of the hazards and even they don't have much of a clue or CO monitors in the house. And, most importantly, who knows why the high levels existed in the first place? I'm thinking of annual routine inspections and maintenance.

So, now that the heating season is almost over, I have lost count of the number of dead bodies here in the USA that could have been prevented if there were stronger (or any) laws that required the type of inspections that would find the problems before they became lethal.

While I am not sure if I'm ready for the Boiler Police of Europe, do you think it is time to lobby for legislation that would REQUIRE annual inspections and testing of heating systems including chimneys and all related components?

Is this not just one more way to Protect the Health of the Nation?

The challenge here is very large. I know that some people here are active advocates for change. I'd like to know just what is being done to improve things. I would also like to know what I can do here in my back yard. (Mark, your input please).

Larry from OSHA

Mark Hunt

You asked for it

Thanks for the response Larry.

Here are a few things I would like to see:

One: Mandatory training and certification for anyone that installs or services combustion appliances. I mean ANY combustion appliance that can be placed in a confined space or home. Training and certifications must be kept current. Without certifications, no installations or service of combustion appliances.

Two: Mandatory training and certification for inspectors. This would also mean that ALL installations would have to be inspected. This includes home inspectors if they check any combustion appliance in the home to determine if it works. Most do.

Three: Manufacturers to SPECIFICALLY state that their product MUST be tested for combustion and CO with a digital anayzer, what the acceptable CO levels are for their product and at what levels the units should be shut down.

Four: Laws requiring CO testing of any and all combustion appliances in residential and commercial buildings.

Five: CO detectors mandated for residential and commercial buildings. I would also ask that the useless UL listing be revised to allow low level CO alarms. Not allowing a CO alarm to sound at anything less than 70ppm or display below 30ppm is idiotic. Chronic exposure to CO destroys peoples lives, but it's not as flashy as a body count.

OSHA may want to reconsider some of their standars as well. I received quite a few stories regarding CO incidents in warehouses where propane fired forklifts were being used. I only heard the stories of acute poisonings, but as I said, chronic exposure to CO can be devastating and it's almost ALWAYS misdiagnosed.

I had hoped the industry would step up to the plate and begin to police itself, but it looks like the government is going to have to get involved.

Larry, the EPA requires a certification for refrigerants but there is no law requiring certification for CO. A plumber must use lead-free solder when installing a water heater, but he doesn't have to know a damn thing about combustion, venting, or CO. In my area, NY, no liscence is required for heating companies. Some areas require a permit to install heat producing appliances and the installations are inspected, at least the ones where a permit was pulled, but the inspectors DO NOT test combustion. They check the manufacturers installation manuals to make sure the venting complies with those manuals. For atmospheric models, a draft test consists fo putting a match near the drafthood. That is a false test, it only proves air from the combustion area is going up the chimney, nothing else. It's in EVERY manufacturers installation manual.

To ignore this issue is to say that a certain number of deaths are acceptable. That's life. Well it's not life, it's death and too many have found this out the hard way.

Some have warned me not to rock the boat. I am not trying to rock the boat, I am trying to capsize it.

Grassroots level, start bothering local politicians and news agencies. Talk to everyone you meet about the seriousness CO. If you want to get depressed, call every PHVAC contractor in your yellow pages and ask if the offer CO testing.

As for the firemen, I posted this story because there are MANY who believe that as long as the first responders are "trained" they don't have to be.

Time for a change.


Mark H

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jw

Despise the \"nanny\" state, but..............

The one thing I would like to see that would make CO poisioning from appliances almost a fact of history is to mandate sealed combustion. Even if the appliance is out of specs, the CO produced is delivered to the outdoors and appliance cannot be affected by negative pressure in structure and under most circumstances cannot spill into building envelope.

The #1 cause of deaths in hospitals is nocosomial infection and medical malpractice. This by some of the most highly regulated and licenced people on the planet. #1 cause of death on the highway is licenced drivers!

So what makes us think that licencing and regulation is the answer? It is not. Only CARING beings that have anothers interest at heart will make a real difference and all the rules and regulations in the world won't fix it.

Look at the war on drugs and the war on poverty. Lost both of them. Guarantee that if govt. declares war on it, we lose. (Iraq too?) So lets try to raise God fearing children who know the "golden rule" and in short order we will have a much healthier society.

C-TEC

CO certification

Mark, I agree with you 100%. If training for CO is not mandated, people will keep learning by riding with the next guy in the truck. I do agree that some will not take it seriously, but if it saves lives, it's worth it.

Mark Hunt

Thanks J!


Check your e-mail.

Good to see your posts.

Mark H

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Mark Hunt

I agree John


I just don't see any other way.

Anyone that handles refrigerant is supposed to be certified. If they get caught working without the certification, or they get caught disposing of refrigerants illegally, they can be fined BIG bucks.

What if there were similar fines for improper installation and service of combustion appliances?

Too many people die each year from CO. Something has to change.


Mark H

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