Newbie advice needed.

D_3

Hi,

purchasing my first home - 100 year old, 2 floor, 4 bedroom with steam rads in NJ.

One of the conditions is that the seller must replace the aging and rusting Weil-McLain boiler. They have recived a quote for a Pennco with an output of 200,000 BTUs. Also a very cheap price of $3200 installed.

Talking to another heating specialist, he thought the output was too high and the price too low to do the job properly.

He metioned that I should insist upon steel pipe with cast iron fittings and not copper pipe and reccomended Burnham or Weil-McLain.

Any thoughts?

Any help?

Thanks.

D

Tony_8

options

You could try for price concessions on the house and get your own contractor. That way you don't have to live with someone else's low-bidder.

gehring

Concur


I agree with Tony. Negotitate the highest possible lumpsum contribution from the Seller. Then, after you close, get your own contractor. Pick out your own boiler. Get the job done right and make up any of the difference out of your own pocket. It will be worth it in the long run, especially if you plan to stay there awhile.
Who made it a condition to replace the boiler? If it was you, then you can obviously change the terms of the condition. If it is the bank (due to a home inspector's recommendation) then you could propose that the Seller's money and your additional funds be escrowed by the bank and will not be released until the new boiler is installed AFTER the closing thus AFTER you own the house. (That way you have no funds at risk on a house you don't even own yet.) And, if the job is being done after you own the house, then you will be around to make sure it is done right or to agree to suggested upgrades if they make sense. It doesn't pay to skimp on a boiler job. The escrow can be set up wherein the contractor would provide evidence of the proper plumbing/heating permit (f required)as well as subsequent certificate of completion or project sign off and then the bank would pay the contractor directly upon receipt of a conditional lien release. That way the bank is protected that the job gets done (and to code), the contractor is protected by getting paid quickly and you are protected by getting a proper boiler job.

D_3

Hi gehring,

thanks for the reply.

The conditions were negioted by our lawyer and while the majority of work is up to par, the boiler seemed a little low.

There seems to be about a 2K difference in what they propose and the ballpark quote I received from the other contractor, but I'm sure I can bring that much closer.

I may take your advice and supervise the installation myself.

Any thoughts on the Burnham or Weil-Mclean verses the Pennco?

Copper pipe verses steel with cast iron fittings?

And the BTU output?

Thanks again.

d

Uni R

Bizarre Condition

Why not just negotiate a reduction in the purchase price? If you have land transfer taxes, they'll be reduced. The property value assessment may be reduced. You'll be the one negotiating with the contractor (don't expect the current owner to care about anything other than the price) and you'll be the original owner of the system if there are warranty transfer issues. This clause seems bizarre to me. Pennco and copper is not what you want in the long run.

R. Kalia

I have sold houses and I know...if I am getting out and the inspection requires that I fix some things, then all that interests me is getting it done at the lowest price. You can indeed get a furnace put in for that price, but it will not be a good job or a good furnace.

Just because the lawyer has negotiated terms doesn't mean you cannot request any changes now. If they have a quote for $3200, you can't get more than $3200, you're stuck with that. Since the contract did not specify the quality of the installation or any other details, there is nothing you can do about that. But you can ask your lawyer to ask them to give you the $3200 or reduce the price by that amount; this should be acceptable to them. Plan to add a significant amount to this for your new boiler. If you just take their choice of boiler, you will regret it.

Thad English

replacing the boiler

Since the sale of the house is contingent upon the replacement of the steamer, you have wiggle room with respect to the cost and how you want it done. If it is not done to YOUR requirements then you can walk away from the deal and the seller is back to square one. Were I to be in your shoes (and I was a scant 5 months ago) I would get several bids for replacing it and get a check at closing from the seller for the amount of the average of the 3 bids. Then I would choose the contractor that would do it right, covering the difference (if any) myself. It will save you money in the long run. I learned the hard way that my "do it the right way" mind set differed greatly from the seller's "do it the cheap way." Never, ever, in any kind of weather, should you let the seller choose the contractor to do the repair to a property that you are buying. Always get a check from them and choose the people yourself. You will be much happier with the results.

$3200 for a new steamer installed? I have spent close to that so far just redoing the near boiler piping, insulating the mains, replacing the main vent, and replacing the vents on all the rads. Someone once told me that sometimes you get what you pay for, but you NEVER get what you DON'T pay for. I don't think that you will get a boiler that heats your house quietly and doesn't cost and arm and a leg each month in fuel to operate for that price.

But that's just my opinion and I could be wrong......

R. Kalia

> Since the sale of the house is contingent upon

> the replacement of the steamer, you have wiggle

> room with respect to the cost and how you want it

> done.


I don't see that. The condition is that the boiler be replaced. Indeed they are going to replace the boiler. You cannot now say "You must get three bids and pay me the average" if it's not in the contract to start with. The only things you can change are things that are agreed to mutually.

Kal Row

use the weil with cast fitings

the large weil has two large steam supplies on top and can be piped in a way to give you really dry steam, ask for cast fitings, and flanges, and a butterfly valve to isolate the house from the unit so that it can be set without the whole house in play, and 3200 is way way to low to do a good job on this

D_3

Thanks all.

I'm now waiting for 2 other quotes and will negotiate the money for the boiler off the price.

The heating contractor (who put me on to this site) gave me a ball park of about 5K which seems more in line with the job. He was also the one who mentioned the steel pipe over copper and that I may need fewer BTUs. He thought 200,000 too many for the size of the house and I would be paying huge monthly bills.

After I spoke with the original contractor who quoted that number he told me the present unit was 180,000, and as he was replacing it, he felt that it should be down with a similar size, but contractor 2 felt adament that the rads should be measured and a true number determined. Makes sense to me.

Home ownership... man o man.



D

jim lockard

Take

The money you will be sorry if you do not. If you want the house just take the money. best wishes J.Lockard

R. Kalia

hmmm

> After I spoke with the original

> contractor who quoted that number he told me the

> present unit was 180,000, and as he was replacing

> it, he felt that it should be down with a similar size


Well, that's a sign of a qualified contractor right there!

Sorry, that was sarcasm. As everyone here will tell you, that's the one criterion one should NOT use in sizing a boiler or furnace. Larger units cost more to run; in the good old days no one cared about that because energy was so cheap.

Kal Row

had somone spent 3700 then

had to do it over correctly for 5700 (which is still good), so get the right contractor up front – (think about a business with rent, reception, truck and equipment leases, even just one worker, and INSURANCE!!!, costs about 100 an hour just for us to be in business)

first you have to do a heat loss calc in every space, there is a radiator, to find out if the radiation installed it enough (usually is, unless there were new editions)

then you have to add up the radiation to get the load

also each radiator vent has to be tested and/or replaced - as well at the main and riser air vents – speak to the previous owner about which radiator came on slow or not at all, r where were cold spots in the house – your only getting one shot at this

then if you are doing major renovation to the whole house - you need to ask yourself, if you always want to heat the whole house or just a small part of it – cause if you only want to heat small parts of it at a time – a conversion to hot water heat is in order

ps about copper: steam can move at 40mph in the pipes – and if a copper fitting gives – you will NOT be able to get out of the way – don’t event think about it – when I was a kid – we had a classroom at the opposite end of a basement from the boiler, and it blew a tube header a we watched with horror as the steam ran across that building – at the time, it looked like 1000mph to my child’s eyes, I had never seen anything move so fast – like the fast-rolling-cloud-billowing of an accelerated thunder storm in a horror movie - fortunately the was a large stairwell break preceding us to dissipate it, so we were ok, but boy was it scary – and we were still immersed in steam bath equivalent steam and came out wet