What's wrong with this picture - DF

Dan Foley

This is one we worked on a few weeks ago in Middleburg, VA. We weren't working on the steamer on this job, we were installing central A/C for the first floor. We were on this job for two weeks installing the A/C and a parade of technicians from the oil company came through trying to fix the steam boiler. I made a few suggestions to one of the technicians working on the boiler but it does not appear that they used my advice. I also gave my card to the homeowner and asked her to call me if the oil company could not fix the problem.

-DF


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Dan Foley

The House

The house was built in 1934. Here are some pics of the house and the surrounding view. The steam system is a 2-pipe Hoffman equipped vapor system with the differential loop still in place.

-DF

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Dan Foley

A/C system

This is the A/C system we installed to cool the first floor. We had to run all of the ductwork in a crawl space that varied from 18" to 30". The floor was a suspended concrete slab so we had to cut through 3" of concrete for each register. This is one of the toughest A/C jobs we have attempted.

-DF

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Dan Foley

What is this?

This buried tank has long been abandoned. It appears to be some sort of cistern or storage vessel for domestic water. It looks like it was hooked to the well at one point but is now disconnected. I have never seen anything quite like it.

-DF

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ScottMP

Dan

I would guess it has to do with the well. We have seen alot of tanks that size that were part of the well system, and the tanks were exposed.

Boy you had me untill the hot air work

Scott

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Jim S

How long

Has the boiler been installed?

Nice welded header,but the tappings seem to be misplaced.

I`m no steam expert,but I`m sure they shoud`ve entered on top and drained the condensate from the other end.

Dan Foley

Not hot air!

Scott,

Thanks for the comments. No hot air on this job, just A/C. I have a feeling we will be restoring the steam system next fall.

-DF

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David Efflandt

hydropneumatic tank

That looks like the end of a hydropnematic (pressure) tank buried in the ground for domestic water from the well. I have seen those in small town municipal water plants (I worked for a well driller in college, and now sell/service automatic control valves for city/industrial water systems). Best drawdown is around 2/3rds air, so maybe when they saw much water it was time to add air.

Since our company got its start making float valves, one of our early products maintained the proper air level in a pressure tank using just the water pressure and a float mechanism (non-electric). But now an air compressor is much cheaper.

Dan Foley

Boiler

Jim,

I do not know the exact install date but the boiler has a 1995 date code.

-DF

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Mad Dog

Typical large residential or commercial header setup

What are the complaints, Dan? Hey that's you on The Cover of the NCI booklets, isn't it? Mad Dog

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Robert O'Connor_7

I suspect a little banging by the zone valves. I always install in upright to (semi)upright position whenever possible. Whats the boiler drain (mid piping) for? RSO

Patchogue Phil_21

Oil Co Sticker

That sticker caught my eye... "Mo_ran Oil Corporation".... MORON Oil Company. LOL!

Is that a commentary on their services?

Walk Good
Phil

joe_6

I would

second that opinion.That header should be entered from top to keep that steam dry.So what was the original problem with boiler that oil company was working on.Dont know much about steam but just guessing.So whats the answer?Dont keep us waiting.

Dan Foley

Complaints

High fuel usage (bills), water hammer, leaking pipes, the usual suspects. There is severe water hammer when one of the valves opens. I would have piped this one differently but it certainly is not the worst I have ever seen.

The biggest problem is not visible from this photo. All of the traps appear to be the original and some are bleeding through. In addition, there is only one #75 main vent for the entire system. The air cannot get out quick enough so the system short cycles.

-DF

PS Yes, that's my mug on the NCI cover.


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Dan Foley

Boiler Drain

Robert,

That boiler drain is on a hot water loop off of the steam boiler - just like in Dan's book. It is no longer being used and is valved off.

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[Deleted User]

Drop headers, yes.

Rising headers, no. Maybe we can get Weil to make some glass risers so we can see what happens when they are piped into the bottom of the header.

Couldn't see the grade on header. Can the equalizer be moved to where it should be? If they really need those valves, mayhap a drip w/ a trap would help. Bet the motors are 30 sec full open.

Steamhead

You're Right, David

it's a pressure tank for the water system. Such a large tank was common when a non-electric pump was used, such as a windmill or gasoline-powered unit. You only had to start the pump once a day, or if it was a windmill it could fill the tank whenever the wind came up. You could even hook up a windmill so it only ran when the pressure got down to 20 pounds, and it would stop at 40 pounds.

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Matt Undy

cisterns

In my area it was common to run the conductor pipes off the roof to a cistern and use that water for laundry and tiolets around the teens or so.

Matt

Robert O'Connor_7

Thanks for the reply

You can't really tell from the pic's. Thank You.

Mark J Strawcutter

sounds like

a good application for spacepak/unico. 4in core drill for the "registers"?

Mark

Mark J Strawcutter

nice job

on the refrig lines - especially the offset in the liquid line for the filter-drier.

What prompted me to post this was seeing how the lineset was run (by someone else) on hotrod's thread about throwing a munchkin a curve.

Mark

J.C.A._3

O.K. , Maybe talking out of turn here but.....

The zone valves for the steam are layed on their side because THERE AIN'T enough space overhead to accommodate them!

Methinks it's time to "dig a pit" and get a proper "A" dimension. Even at 2 1/2"-or 3" take-off, there isn't enough room for the steam to get out!(imagine only 1 of those valves open) Hammer? I bet the thing goes off so quickly on pressure that the waterline is changing faster than the Concorde ever flew.

Just for yucks, can we get a picture of the returns and related piping? Dave, I feel for you. Trying to point someone in the right direction has bitten me in the butt more than once. Handing your card to the owner was a class act. (knowing you didn't slam the installer while doing it....right?) This looks like an interesting project. Keep us posted. Chris

Dan Foley

High Velocity

Mark,

This job was originally sold with a Space-Pak high velocity air handler and duct system for the reasons you mentioned - smaller ducts and small round core-drilled holes. The GC agreed to this and signed the contract. The homeowner freaked out when she saw the round vents instead of the registers she expected. We had to re-write the contract using a conventional ducted system.

-DF

PS thank you for the nice comments on the refrigerant piping. The work was done by my ace mechanic Slavko and his helper, Mil.

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andy_5

Nice looking A/C job.I don't see a condensate drain though.Was the job not finished when the picture was taken?Or am I just not seeing it?

Dan Foley

Condensate drain

Good eye! The job is not yet complete. We are going back in a few weeks to do the start up when the renovation is complete.

-DF

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ken D

zone valves

> I suspect a little banging by the zone valves. I

> always install in upright to (semi)upright

> position whenever possible. Whats the boiler

> drain (mid piping) for? RSO



when zone valves close, steam condenses into condensate and waits for zone to open to condense the incoming steam and make water hammer? Just saw it in chapter 4 of lost art. Am I correct?

ken D

zone valves

when zone valves close, steam condenses into condensate and waits for zone to open to condense the incoming steam and make water hammer? Just saw it in chapter 4 of lost art. Am I correct?