Gas Shutters Turned down for Natural?

GW

Hi Guys,

I have a Smith GB200 natural gas, the gas is mis-firing on light off in one or more of the tubes on light off, on random occasions. IE, the burner doesn't fire like normal; it only 'flutters' in the tube by the manifold.

The factory guy tells me to turn down the shutters about 75% closed... this goes against all I was ever taught- anyone have some input?

Gary

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lchmb

replace the tube's...

burning through the tube is something i normally see on older unit's. As the tube start's to wear out (rust) it will start doing this. I would check all my pressure's, incoming, and across valve and then check the orifice's for sizing...If not then I would turn down the venturi's a little at a time and order a new set of tube's for it..IMHO..:) good luck

Mark Hunt

What kind of combustion numbers?


CO? O2? Gas pressures? Draft?

Mark H

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GW

it's a new boiler

I've had this problem in the past with ONLY SMITH!

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GW

Don't

I don't have the numbers with me, but combustion is good and the presure is at 3.5.

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GEO_3

burning at the spud

Is usually seen in propane conversions less with natural gas. If the burners are ok. IE no holes and clean, and the presure is correct. Check the orifice size make sure it's not overfired. If all ok soften the air adjustment.

Mad Dog

Jim Davis tells us..................

Shutters are meant for propane. On natural gas, shutters should be 100% open. Mad Dog

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Jim Davis

Light-off

Gary, the gas coming out of the burner spuds is not getting into the burner crossover tubes. This could be caused by manifold alignment, burner alignment or some of the scoops are dirty. Ahutting the air shutter will slow the gas down which may help it get up into the crossovers but it could then screwup combustion in other ways. If you are still having the problem next month maybe I will get a chance to look at them while I am in Boston.

Unknown

Mad Dog That is a pretty broad statement

which is not always the case. It is not a good idea to make such a broad statement about air shutters. There are certain types of burners that if you do that the flame will lift off the burners and cause pilot outage. It may also in the case of microamp systems cause the flame to be pulled away from the sensing rod and cause nuisance shut offs. From a combustion perspective that may be the case, but there is more to all of this than just testing for combustion. Many times we have to adjust to get a happy balance and then make sure we have low CO with the best efficiency we can get.

lchmb

not knocking anyone...

but do you alway's believe everything your told? I have been to site's with factory rep's and tech's as they "adjusted" the "shutters"...I know the book call's for them to be 100% but in the case of propane, take a stove, they come through with a notch for propane (air shutter adjustment) when you convert them, this is supposably the exact point to set to....Do it and you will be back for rushing sound's or hard starting on the burner...JMHO...and I have to admit..everytime I see jim Davis in a post I have to keep an eye on it..usually good for a "hot discussion"...:)

Unknown

Gary, what you are having is Flashback

the factory was being a little extreme with 75%. Flashback on ignition or during burner operation usually can be eliminated by reducing primary air to the burner. Make sure the reduction does not produce yellow flames. Reduce it slowly and see with gradual reductions if it will help.
The burners may also be underated, so check the input rate and actually measure the size of the orifices and find out from the local utility what the BTU content of their gas is so that you can get the burners to fire at there maximum rate but not over, also measure the manifold gas pressure and make sure it matches the rating plate. The orifice calculations should be as close to the clocked input as possible. You may want to increase the gas pressure slightly to see what affect it has just again be careful not to overgas. If this keeps happening as this is a brand new unit the burners could be defective. All the things Jim Davis mentioned about alignment are also important.

Increasing primary air will increase the burning speed of the gas and thus increase the tendency for flashback. Flashback is caused when the gas-air flow velocity is less than the burning speed at some point near the burner head or port. In a sense your flame velocity and flow velocity are out of synch. When the burner is first turned on the gas flow rate goes from zero to full rate in a very short time. The mixture at the burner head rapidly changes from all air to a steady-state mixture of gas and air. Flow from the burner ports goes from zero to that of normal operation. It is possible that at some instant the mixture flow from the ports will be low enough and burning speed high enough to cause flashback to take place at ignition. The mixture being too rich or too lean will also cause this. The air adjustment becomes critical once the correct gas flow is established.

One of the things I have learned to do on brand new equipment is to remove all of the burners at time of installation and with a soft clean emory cloth clean them and then blow them out with air. Then make sure the spacing between the orifice spud and the burner is correct.

Hope this helps.

GW

thanks for all the help

This job has been a big problem- messed up steam mains, the works. Smith is the only boiler I've seen this happen... makes me wonder.

Gary

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GEO_3

Air shutters

If you guys have been paying attention at all you would see most burners should not be left 100% open unless you work for the gas co and want to put more heat up the chimney. 75% closed is extream from the standpoint that is doesn't leave any room for dust and dirt to shut it down further. Why is it we spend so much time setting up oil burners but think nothing of turning on the gas and walking away. Take the time it's worthit

Jim Davis

Air Shutters

If one would look back into some old combustion manuals they would find that atmospheric burners used on natural gas only get 30% of their total air for complete combustion from primary air mixed with the fuel in the burner. The rest of the air for complete combustion is secondary air. The percentage of air that flows into the heat exchanger and burner on atmospheric burners is substantially influenced by the draft in the chimney. Any adjustment to the air shutters on natural gas has little affect on how much air goes through the appliance, just how much mixes with the fuel. Propane burners on the other hand, because of higher pressure actually can pull up to 60% primary air through the burner and can cause lifting. I am familiar with equipment from the 50's,60's and 70's that the air shutters were only available with the propane kits. There are cases because of mechanical deficiencies of equipment that adjusting the air shutter can quite it down or prevent excess rollout. The trick is that any adjustment at any time without a combustion analyzer is dangerous. Notice that today most gas inshot burners have no air shutters for gas or propane.

Mad Dog

I hear ya, Timbo

mad dog

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jim sokolovic

Put this thread together with...

the CO /CO2 thread, and we might be taking alot of the mystery out of understanding proper combustion. Consider all of the factors - how we establish the settings that provide a safety factor against CO formation, while maintaining good efficiency and reliability of ignition, and protect against poor flame performance such as flashback, lifting, impingement, sooting, etc...

Unknown

Jim you never cease to amaze me

with what you come up with. I have been working in the gas industry during the 50's, 60's and 70's and just about all of the natural gas equipment I worked on had air shutters. I guess us folks up here in New England get different equipment. I have been adjusting and testing for years and air shutters many times are necessary for proper flame adjustment. I am very aware that very little of the air needed for combustion comes from primary air, but proper flame charcteristics if not able to be obtained by burner design must be adjusted.

What mechanical deficiences are you talking about?

By the way some of those pieces of equipment with no air shutters today are nothing but a problem, burning out igniters, nuisance lockout dues to flame lifting off the burners etc. Of course you must have an answer for all of that I am sure.

Much of what you post is correct, but some of the things you post are dead wrong. You may think that you have all the answers but some of what you post is incorrect I do not care how many people may think you are right. It becomes obvious to me that you lack knowledge on many of the problems on gas equipment and your emphasis is totally relagated to combustion only. There is more to this than just combustion and CO. Please do not twist what I just said. I was testing equipment before you ever came into this industry and the more I read what you post the more I get concerned about what you are teaching. I want try to accept it but my knowledge of gas systems will not let me. I am not one of those guys who says we have always done it this way. I am open to learn but some of this is just incorrect.

I really have to walk away from the computer sometimes because I really want to write so much that would contradict what you are saying but I bite my proverbial tongue if you will. I get concerned that those who do not know get caught up in what you say. The scary thing is that mingled in with all of it is enough truth that it makes it hard to decipher all of it unless you have some knowledge.

I am afraid that instead of helping people here we may be confusing them. I know what your answer to that will be - come to your seminars and all the confusion will go away. I am going to sign off for now I am tired and am probably going to say things I may regret. I also want you to know Jim I have great respect for you but I can not sit back and say nothing. I want to remain friends and simply be able to agree to disagree.

lchmb

a very wise man once told me in this buisness the minute you think you know it all you better stop working on it. You will kill someone.. I will keep listening and learning..I hope the teacher can also...:) IMHO
BTW Tim I think that was an excellent statement on your part, and I agree with you 110%..Thank you for all you do here and OTT...

Mark Hunt

When I started


in this business a little over 20 years ago, I was told to adjust the shutters on natural gas equipment until I had a nice blue flame with yellow tips.

That was the extent of testing a gas combustion appliance.

When I asked about water heaters, I was told that they were "factory set" and didn't require adjustment.

I wish I knew 20 years ago what I know today. Digital analyzers should be mandatory equipment on every company truck.

Just out of curiosity Timmie, when you were with the gas company, how often did you test equipment in the field? The gas companies around here never touch equipment, even if there is a complaint. They won't even light pilots!

I assume you were using tubes to test back then, since digital equipment wasn't available. How accurate were those tubes for low level CO, and would they detect ambient CO? Was there a temperature limit for them?

Mark H

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Unknown

Mark, I suggest you stay out of this

I am sure Jim Davis is capable of defending himself. And just for the record every gas company is not the same.The company I worked for had only one incident of CO poisioning directly related to a piece of equipment we had serviced in the eighteen years I was the trainer. That is a pretty good record.

To answer your question we tested equipment when no one was testing equipment. Probably when you were still in high school and Jim Davis was wondering what he would do for a career. I have probably lit more pilots than you have taken breaths. I suggest as all of Jims disciples keep telling me that I should go to Jim's classes that you and Jim come to mine and then judge for yourself if I know what I am talking about.

As far as CO testing we used what was available at the time. Those tubes we used were kept in a freezer to preserve them for testing and all of them had experation dates on them so every test was done with an active tube.They were mainly used for flue gas testing to make sure the equipment was safe.

They did not accurately test ambient CO we had a special Monoxor tester we used. You are right we have come a long way but we have done the best we could with what we had. It also meant we had to be a lot better at combustion adjustment and burner set up. I have installed and tested over 3,600 gas conversion burners with out an incident and everyone firing at a minimum of 75% combustion efficiency.

If you really want to take me on as far as knowledge goes then lets have at it. That goes for you and any others who are caught up in Jims procedures.

We all have a lot to learn and I will state it again there is more to this than just combustion testing and CO. You have a lot too learn about this CO problem and getting every one on board.

I suggest you take on the oil burner folks and the LP gas folks for a real campaign to get testing done. I will continue as I have for the last 43 years educating people about the dangers of CO and combustion testing. You all act like this has not been a concern of some of us in the past. Sometimes when you make so much noise about something people stop listening.

Mark a simple truth sit down and listen and learn. A quiet man learns much but he that makes much noise only hears himself.

Jim Davis

Timmie the first thing I do when I see people say or do certain things is question why? Then I start to research this information in engineering, design and combustion manuals. Then I talk to specific engineers at certain companies about their particular designs. Then I spend hours in the field testing each concept and theory. After several hundred consistent results I start to see a pattern. Even then I do not believe or trust that the exception to the rule does not exist. This is why I believe in the nit-picking every job to the max. I worked at a wholesaler for 16 years that sold mostly parts and watched them fail over and over and no one seemed to have an answer other than that is to be expected. Everything I have talked about can be proven or disproven and for 25 years those around me have tried. One of the stories I tell in class is how the field service group of my local gas company put out a memo that stated if any of their service techs came across a job that looked like I had help a contractor with some recommendations, they should cut off the gas to the building immediately. Within 30 minutes the Vice President of this gas company wrote a memo that said the first one to shut off any gas because of their memo would be terminated along with his supervisor. My friends have ask me for years why I haven't packed my tent and moved on. My foes have always been waiting to help. But because I care, because I know I am making a difference, just as you do and everyone else here does, we continue are quest. A business trainer our company uses states we should create raving fans. I told him I was half way there because I create raving lunatics. This is certainly the reason I work for an Institute. Don't forget Glenn will be in my class in Boston the end of April. Anything and everything he finds fault with at my seminar will be discussed here I am sure. Every comment, every criticism should makes us better, not bitter.

Darin Cook_2

It's just too bad..

I see alot of people try to bash Jim Davis. The facts that Jim speaks of, are proven in the field and proven on paper. It is a bitter pill to swallow to find out that what you thought what the truth for the past 30 years was a lie. Jim did not come up with this stuff, it was in play long before he came onto the scene. He did not create the laws of physics, GOD did. Some people run courses and just photocopy a bunch of literature and pass it off as fact. That is a severe negative passed off to the trades. Once we thought that the world was flat. It turned out as time went by, that it was round(ta da). As to the issue of air shutters, go ask the manufacturer why they are there? Then ask HOW to adjust them and with what. If you do mess around with them, you probably(HE-He)void the warranty. But then again, no matter what you do , you are always the one who is held responsible(ask a lawyer). People should put pride on the back porch and let the light of truth shine in.

Mad Dog

I've got to agree with you Bob..................................

Jim Davis is a revolutionary in the industry. Until he came along nobody that I knew of on a National level was grappling and pinning down the CO Mysteries. Manufacturers blew us off with vague and ambiguous quips. What is often comes down to on problem jobs is that the manufacturer's give you some pat answer that covers them. The same with our gas utility although yours was in great hands when you ran the show.When all is said and done, it is we, the contractor that is stuck with the problem and the phone calls. "voiding" the warranty is not our biggest problem in some of these cases...we need the problem fixed and the headache over. As for Timmie: Sir, you are the most knowledgeable gas, burner, and wiring man I know. I have studied under you several times and am proud to tell anyone that even after many honeywell and every other course imaginable, your's finaly penetrated my thick Irish skull. After studying under you a few years ago, there has not been a no-heat call I could not fix. You are a great hands on and field teacher and really know your stuff. I have the highest regard for you and would never let anyone trash your good name or defame you. Besides your technical prowess, you are a good, kind soul. I don't like to see you get so worked up, Pal. You are one of my friends. I must say also, that Jim Davis is a true gentleman too, and also a friend. I don't want to see this get in to a bloody fight. JIm is a maverick - a rebel if you will, and that is a good thing. We need a vigorous and strenuous debate on the CO issue. Thank God it is finally here. For Years, we all just hoped, prayed and kept our fingers crossed that nothing would go wrong. Jim has sparked the greatest interest in CO that this industry has ever seen. The man must be heard - in person - before you make a final decisions on him. A Lot of us went in very skeptical, but came out believers. I think we need to get you two gents together at the Next opportunity in a public forum where people can decide for themselves. I can say this: Jim has always advocated safety and thorough testing for spillage, combustion air, and co levels in and out of equip. The same things you teach Timmie. Jim Davis has boldy brought the CO issue to the fore like no one before him. Whether you agree with his tactics or not, you have to acknowledge that fact. With Deep reverence to both men, Mad dog

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Mark Hunt

I appreciate


you answers Timmie.


Mark H

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Jim Davis

Very good Matt and Bob! Timmie and I will continue to debate on certain things as often as they may come up because we are both passionate. The neat thing is how many can benefit from these conversations. If everything discussed agreed with everything and the way it has always been, people wouldn't need training. I believe Timmie provides a service that is probably not available anywhere else in the country at his level. For this I am grateful! I teach a subject that is not taught quite the same way anywhere in the country. Another controversy I teach is that it is impossible to calculate the efficiency of an appliance with an combustion analyzer and yet every piece of equipment made is rated on this information. Guess which manufacturer of test equipment has been able to prove this wrong? None of them!! If thats the case why bother? Because they provide us with valuable measurements that we can't live without.
By the way Gary, aren't you glad you asked this question? Have you been able to apply anything that has been suggested?

Jim Davis

OOPs!!

Unknown

Jim, I also have suffered

through people in particular those at the gas company who did not agree with my ideas and findings, it probably was why they downsized me out of the company. In fact looking back at the 30 of us let go we all were somewhat controversial. My next battles was with equipment manufacturers who many times as I believe Matt said "give us some pat answer hopeing we will go away". Well I do not go away as some have surely found out.

You are right we are passionate as is George Lanthier (Firedragon). I spent a day with George yeaterday and we dicussed Jim Davis and all that you bring to the table. We do not agree with everything you promote, we both have to be careful to keep the passion directed in a good end result. Which is that we all learn. I nor you learn any thing unless we asked questions and get answers. When the answers do not line up with what I have learned, not what I was told, not what I was taught, but what I have learned (that's for Mark Hunt). Because learning goes beyond told and taught it says I have taken told and taught into the arena of life and seen it work and learned from it, or it has not worked and I have had to go back and research why. We both do that I am sure. It is important that we all understand that instructors, trainers, seminar presenters are an unusual bunch we have big EGOS and as much as we like debate we would all like to walk away thinking we and only we are right. A big EGO has to them with draw to the place of humility and listen and learn. When we hear something unusual or seemingly incorrect we then re-enter the discussion. In the end we are all still friends and hopefully are motives are not generated by our EGOS.

I also wonder if my friend Gary Wilson has gotten his problem solved. My how we do get carried away and forget the real reason we all post here. To help and serve one another.

I love you Jim, Mark Hunt, Matt Sweeney let us go forth and eliminate the scourge of combustion running wild and killing people.

I will be back to debate another day but I do have to get some work done.

Murph'_5

What a shame it is ........

From what I see with all the "bashing" and name calling , kinda makes you want to turn the other cheek and "do it the way it's always been done" !! Tooo late for me as I will always question what I see and do, but what I gather from some of these "Pros" is not very inviting. I see alot of stones thrown at each other, sides being taken, then when the dust settles you all want to extend an olive branch to prove how much of a "really good guy" you all are!! Too bad!!


What happens is you folks fail to do what is set out to do, which is to help/teach a better way. possibly the best way or at least something that is safe. My problem is a moral one that tells of being able to convey the message while still being able to provide for my family, not a easy sell sometimes!!


Do you feel that all the questions are being posted here or at OTT? I have a limited number of folks I feel confident to call with questions as for I do not want to incite a riot online. (what a shame) Perhaps Mr. Wilson did not know that his question was so controversial, If he did he has some big kahunas. Or maybe this was beginning to boil for awhile. funny part is how fickle people get afterwards in "the name of helping the industry" lets face it we are all in it for the money (have to be) some just need more than others!!


Call it what you want, only keep in mind what you want the end result to be "silencing the killer" and perhaps saving some fuel in the process!!



Murph'


(soap box is now vacant)

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Murph'_5

Oh and by the way...

If you fellas do not quit your chest thumping and figure out how to get all you ducks in a row, some SOB lawer is gonna come and clean your clocks with "new laws" that you may not entirely agree with!!



Murph'

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C-TEC

burner problem

Gary, I have found that low gas pressure can cause this type of problem. Setting the gas pressure at factory spec may work, but not 100% of the time. Each installation is different because of venting, gas btu content, building and atmospheric pressures, etc. Try increasing the manifold gas pressures to 4.5"wc or 5.5'wc and see what happens. A combustion analyzer could help you test the appliance to determine that it is burning correctly while you make the necessary adjustments weather its mechanical or not. I never rely on gas pressures or flame color 100%. I have seen blue flames produce in excess of 1000ppm CO.
Remember its not what we like, it's what the appliance likes.

Mark Hunt

J!!!!!


That is not mentioned in the manufacturers installation manual!

This is not in the GAMA book!

How can this be?????



Mark H

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Mark Hunt

I have thought about it

> I am sure Jim Davis is capable of defending

> himself. And just for the record every gas

> company is not the same.The company I worked for

> had only one incident of CO poisioning directly

> related to a piece of equipment we had serviced

> in the eighteen years I was the trainer. That is

> a pretty good record.

>

> To answer your question

> we tested equipment when no one was testing

> equipment. Probably when you were still in high

> school and Jim Davis was wondering what he would

> do for a career. I have probably lit more pilots

> than you have taken breaths. I suggest as all of

> Jims disciples keep telling me that I should go

> to Jim's classes that you and Jim come to mine

> and then judge for yourself if I know what I am

> talking about.

>

> As far as CO testing we used

> what was available at the time. Those tubes we

> used were kept in a freezer to preserve them for

> testing and all of them had experation dates on

> them so every test was done with an active

> tube.They were mainly used for flue gas testing

> to make sure the equipment was safe.

>

> They did

> not accurately test ambient CO we had a special

> Monoxor tester we used. You are right we have

> come a long way but we have done the best we

> could with what we had. It also meant we had to

> be a lot better at combustion adjustment and

> burner set up. I have installed and tested over

> 3,600 gas conversion burners with out an incident

> and everyone firing at a minimum of 75%

> combustion efficiency.

>

> If you really want to

> take me on as far as knowledge goes then lets

> have at it. That goes for you and any others who

> are caught up in Jims procedures.

>

> We all have

> a lot to learn and I will state it again there is

> more to this than just combustion testing and CO.

> You have a lot too learn about this CO problem

> and getting every one on board.

>

> I suggest you

> take on the oil burner folks and the LP gas folks

> for a real campaign to get testing done. I will

> continue as I have for the last 43 years

> educating people about the dangers of CO and

> combustion testing. You all act like this has not

> been a concern of some of us in the past.

> Sometimes when you make so much noise about

> something people stop listening.

>

> Mark a simple

> truth sit down and listen and learn. A quiet man

> learns much but he that makes much noise only

> hears himself.



Mark H

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Unknown

Mark what GAMA book

are you talking about? I am not familar with that manual.

Mark Hunt

You got one that says this?


"Try increasing the manifold gas pressures to 4.5"wc or 5.5'wc and see what happens"

Mark H

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Mad Dog

Welcome back < jody!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I haven't spoken to you since we first met in OHIO at Jim's Seminar. I called the office and siad you had left...Did u go out on your own? Good to see you back , Pal. Mad Dog

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GW

reply

Hi Jim,

I've been skimming through the messages as they come in. I don't care for all the who's right and whose wrong, I just want this boiler issue to go away. The funny thing is I bet it's a crappy boiler design. Hurray! We're all right!!

Obviously, as you well know, I have the machinery to test and won't leave home without it.

I tried backing down the shutters, and the Co went up. I played with it for about 20 minutes trying to open, then close, then open, waited, adjusted, waited.... finally I opened them up again and left. I'll let the Smith people look at this- I didn't exactly appreciate how the Smith guy called me back on his "blocked" phone line- and said, "try this, and call me back if it doesn't work". That stinks in my book.

I can't even figure out how the cross over works on this boiler.

I'll see you in Boston with employees in tow.

Gary Wilson-owner
Easthampton, Mass.
413-527-3317
gary@wilsonph.com
www.wilsonph.com
Member of:
ACCA http://www.acca.org
Quality Service Contractors http://www.qsc-phcc.org/
Service Round Table http://www.serviceroundtable.com/
National Comfort Institutehttp://www.nationalinstitute.com/ Radiant Panel Association http://www.rpa-info.com
Better Business Bureau http://www.bbb.org
Western Mass Home Builders Association



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GW

reply

Thanks Tim for all your efforts, I know you know your stuff and learned a lot at your classes.

The boiler issue- I went the other night and while it wasn't flashing back, I did fiddle with the shutters and couldn't find a happy conclusion, so I left it where I found it. The flash back in an every once in a while phenomenon. I'll get the smith people there. Interestly, the home owner is a lawyer, who's has been extremely patient with all this; we had some issues with the old steam system too, but that's another story.

Gary Wilson-owner
Easthampton, Mass.
413-527-3317
gary@wilsonph.com
www.wilsonph.com
Member of:
ACCA http://www.acca.org
Quality Service Contractors http://www.qsc-phcc.org/
Service Round Table http://www.serviceroundtable.com/
National Comfort Institute http://www.nationalinstitute.com/ Radiant Panel Association http://www.rpa-info.com
Better Business Bureau http://www.bbb.org
Western Mass Home Builders Association



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C-TEC

For: GARY WILSON

My previous message post is for Gary. This is what has worked for "ME" in the past. No matter what GAMA,NFPA or BOCA says, I assume liability for the appliance once I've touched it. I'm not going to get into some kind of I'm right and your wrong discussion. That is not in the best interest of the one in need.
Professionally Yours
J. Litten

jim sokolovic

Increasing Manifold pressure...

Low manifold pressure can be the cause of burner flashback, but if the boiler is rated for the specified input at 3.5", then raising the manifold pressure to 4.5" or 5.5" could result in over-firing the burners by as much as 25 %! CO formation is a very likely byproduct of doing this, unless the burner orifices were downsized along with increasing the manifold pressure (with the manufacturer's permission, I suppose). Don't take this as anything but a concerned effort to prevent a dangerous situation, please!

Jim Davis

I think Mr. Litten is basing this statement on the fact the burner orifaces might be undersized or reduced in size from operation(oxidation, dirt etc). He also knows that multiple things must be checked such as combustion air and venting conditions before any attempts to adjust fuel in any direction should ever be made. All concerned here, use CO meters and know that CO reading cannot exceed 100ppm and must remain stable throughout. Sometimes we writers assume certain things that all might not be familiar with and need to be a little more detailed. I know I make that mistake at times. There is no assumption to the fact that safety will always be first.

jim sokolovic

If the burner orifices are undersized...

either from being partially clogged or not the right size for the specified input rate, they should be cleaned or replaced with the correct ones. Just jacking up the manifold pressure until the flashback goes away is not correct, and you know better! Yes, most of the writers need to explain things more thoroughly here. Take note of the details that Timmie provides, even when he posts information that he just gave the previous week.