toilets

tonypete

Back in 1990, I built a showroom for my interior designer girlfriend. At that time, an American Standard Cadet toilet with an elongated bowl was part of a non-working display. Ten years later, I disantled that showroom and this toilet went into storage until the summer of 2002 when I did a total reno of the girlfriends bathroom.

After installing it on brand new ABS DWV, properly wet-vented, we found this toilet consistently failed to clear the waste from the bowl unless you opened the tank and forced the water level to rise higher then it was possible to set the float.

Even with max water, the bowl only flushed at the very last second and that has led me to believe there is either an air leak in the porcelain or a core shift took place during the casting process. Something is keeping this toilet from functioning properly. I have two of this same model in my own home and they flush just fine even if I starve them a bit waterwise.

We have reached our limit with this toilet and are now looking at Crane, Kohler and American Standard two piece, elongated bowl closets. There is a need to stay below 28 inches of total height.

My questions revolve around the different flushing systems out there. The house is on well and septic tank. Therefore, 1.6 gallons or less would be helpful, but not at the expense of rapid and complete flushing. Are there major problems with these powerflush contraptions? Are they expensive to repair? How is there lifespan?

Any and all comments or suggestions would be most appreciated.

Tom

Heatermon

Today's toilets

Comparing the "low flow" toilets to your 1990 model is like comparing today's computers to the one's available in 1990. They all have come a long way in terms of performance. Personally, I like the new gravity flush systems that use a larger sized flush valve and glossy trapways.We have been using Toto toilets for the past year and are really impressed with their performance. They have great one piece elongated models that are really short. Their Carlyle Model with a sani-gloss finish (Supposedly their best model) is 27&1/2" tall. I would stay away from the "power flush" models due to the noise they generate and the complexity of their mechanics (more likely to need repairs, I believe). Kohler has also just introduced a toilet with a larger flushing mechanism if you want to go with a "popular" brand. Good luck with your search, I'm sure you'll find a "good one" if you just ask your local plumbers.

Heatermon

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ScottMP

Toto

Yep Toto.

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Mike Kraft_2

I was going to say..................

just about what Heatermon said.I agree with Scott and Heatermon.

cheese

PS If you look into Toto and like another model,stay with the "G-Max" series.

Constantin

Second the Toto...

Several friends have them and swear by Toto.

However, have you had a look at the new American Standard Champion series? Allegedly, it incorporates much of the same technology as the Toto units at 1/2 the cost. Just a thought in case the Toto is out of reach price-wise.

Kal Row

it's all about drain line carry -

and depends where it is, IE if the toilet is 10-15 ft above the house's horizontal waste, then any of them are fine, because you get gravity acceleration, but if you are on the walk-in or basement level, you need a toto-gmax and if the run - to the end of the house, is more than 40 ft, then you need a "powerflush" - to get across it

the epa totally screwed this one up, when i or my clients use "the lew" we flush at least three times - to guarantee a clean drain, so we use 5-6gal instead of the 3 original, whenever the gov gets involved it gets worse

John_19

its all in the toilet design

The stuff has to leave the bowl, that's the fundamental objective. Toto is the best; I have their Ultimate. One flush is all it takes, unless there is the kind of mess that would take a second flush with *any* kind of toilet.

It is worth considering that some of the more innovative and complete designs for resource conservation (whether boilers, cars, or toilets) originate in places where there are resource constraints. When we take resources for granted and conservation is not a way of life, it is likely to take a few more tries to get it right.

Robert O'Connor_7

toilet?

What happens if you hold the handle down? It may not be using the 1.6 gpf it was suppose to receive. The older 1.6 toilets had problems. In many cases the flappers prematurly close not giving the full 1.6. You may have to give it a little more water by changing the flapper to a aftermarket one without the hole in it's side. Either that or replace it, and voice your concerns with the manufaturer....Robert O'Connor/NJ

tonypete

I am very appreciative of the advice. Let me clarify a couple of things. The current toilet is an American Standard Cadet II (code 4055) and that means it is an 18 litre flush in comparison to the current 6 litre flush toilets common today. One litre is fairly close to one US quart, so you can do the math. I spolke with A/S's customer service and they no longer sell bowls for this model.

And yes, even with an 18 litre flush, I find it necessary to add a couple more litres and still hold the flapper valve open during the entire cycle. Also, I changed the flush valve to a regular flapper type, thus removing the proprietary American Standard flush valve.

The home is a bungalow so the floor level where the toilet sits is about 12 to 14 inches higher then the level of the horizontal waste line heading for the septic tank. The floor system uses 2z10's and the horizontal three inch waste is at 90 degrees to the joist cavity that holds the initial waste run. Therefore, that horizontal waste line is just below the joist level and then falls gradually to the rear of the house to a straight drop of about three feet and then out through the wall to the septic tank.

There is only one toilet in the house and the three inch horizonatal line pretty much begins at this point. The only item further up-line, is the kitchen sink so, there is a transition from inch and a half to three inch just before the joist where the toilet three inch line is connected.

I was not aware of the existence of Toto until coming here. No one wants to spend a ton of dough on a toilet but when you think about it, the cost is really justified considering the lifespan of one.

How much of a difference do you guys find between the G-Max and the Power Gravity model? Also, the Sani-Gloss finish looks like a good idea.

Tom

mph

Cadet II

We had problems with the Cadet II and had to change several of them out. Our supplier gave us newer Cadets and we have had no complaints from the homeowners. We install a lot of Kohler Wellworth's and have had very few complaints (there's always someone out there who insists on using half a roll of TP). The Toto's work great, but their universal flange is a pain to install, especially if you run the radiant tubing in front of the standard closet flange.

In the short term, the distance form the WC to the lateral isn't going to affect how the unit performs; only how long until you need to get the drain snaked.

Jeff

Unknown

Wet Venting

does not work well with with any toilet bowl sepecially the low gallomn flus models.

Think about this, The gravity type toilet bowl operates on the pressure of static head. The greater the static head the better the flushes. When you use a wet vent some the energy developed by the static head is used up clearing the traped air in the wet vent.

The vent in this instance is cleared of water when the effluent of the toilet bowl creates a small vacuum and sucks the water out of the vent.

Jake

mph

Wet vent?

Jacob,

I think you may be confusing a "wet vent" with a running trap. Wet venting is simply running the drain of a one or two unit fixture through the vent of another fixture. For example: using the toilet vent as the drain for the adjacent lav. When sized according to code, the lav trap will not siphon.

Jeff

Jeff_18

New American Standard

I have been sold on the toto, but just installed a A.S. in my own home. I fine to be just as good as the toto . I do like the flush valve much more that toto. I have had a few toto's flush ball fail. I think american standard may be on to something here.

Jeff

Billy_3

Toto

I always push toto. You can't beat the price or it's flush.

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Steamhead

Tom, before you trash that Cadet

check two things:

1- When setting the bowl on the floor, did you use a wax ring with a plastic flange molded into it? If so, try changing to a plain ring without the flange. Sometimes those flanges constrict the flow of water from the bowl into the soil pipe. Make sure you have not restricted the flow at this point. I just reset a pair of old Kohler "Sibley" toilets that both had these plastic flanges in the wax rings. I used plain rings and they flush much better now.

2- Sometimes during the manufacturing process, a stray bit of porcelain remains in the passage thru the bowl's horn (the projection from the bottom of the bowl around which the gasket goes) and this will slow the flow of water out of the bowl. You can grind this excess material out with a Dremel or similar high-speed grinding tool.



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ScottMP

I agree

A wet vent properly installed wil not hamper the flush of a toilet.

I would also like to say that I visited two Toto factorys in Atlanta last year. One was an old Eljer plant that they bought and one is a new state of the art plant.

The thing that I found interesting is that Every Toto bowl is flushed before it is sent out. Not every tenth one, every one. They are put thru two differnt flush test. Pretty impresive.

I won't even talk about the Miso test

Scott

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FITTER-1

I agree the toto is a very fine toilet.

FITTER-1

I have installed a few champion toilets (nothing but complaints).too big,flush too quick......

Allied

Toto

See terrylove.com for reviews and a board.

He likes the Toto G-Max units - Drake, UltraMax, Carlyle. The last two will fit. Carlyle comes with SanaGloss and optional rough in dimensions.

Reports of leaking valves with the AS Champions.

jackchips_2

There have

been a number of scientific studies on horizontal drain carry Kal and they all verify that low flow toilets do not have a negative effect.

Save your flushes.

As for the type of toilets, I put my chad in the toto column.

tonypete

On the two issues raised,

I will pull the toilet and check the horn for obstructions. I will also change out the wax ring to one with no plastic sleeve. If memory serves me right, I did choose a wax ring with the sleeve because I wanted to be certain the closet did not leak and ruin the hardwood floor I installed.

I used the term "wet vent" on the basis of a plumber buddy of mine who used this phrase on previous jobs I worked on. Factually, the toilet is mounted to the plastic floor plate and a long ninety was then glued to that. From the ninety to a 3X3X2 Wye is about three feet of three inch pipe. The wye is angled UP at about 45 degrees from twelve o'clock and two inch pipe runs from the wye over to where it can change to vertical and run up to the attic.

I observed the rules regarding fall in the direction of the main waste pipe so the vent would always be clear of any liquid and all fittings were positioned so as to favour the direction of air flow.

No waste water flows into this two inch line from any source so I am incorrect in referring to this as a wet vent. For that, I apologize.

I will try the remedies suggested this weekend and let you guys know if any of them made any difference.

Thanks

Tom

bob young

WET VENT

IF the closet is set directly on the wood floor you should definitly use a marble slab. the venting circuit seems perfect.a bowl set on wood will positively rot out the flooring and is a violation. set the bowl in plaster

ScottMP

violation of what ?

Never heard that code, is it Bocca ?

marble slab ? set in plaster ?

Sir, you are showing your age

I hav'nt seen an installation like that for ... wait Ive only ripped out jobs like that.

Scott

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bob young

new york city code

the new york city plumbing code is what n.y.c. lic. master plumbers use as a guideline and it works well. with age comes experience and expertise . some day you might grasp that. but being from boston, maybe not.

Earthfire

Venting?

From what I'm reading the point everyone is missing isthe bungalow is on a septic tank.It appeares that the only vent for the system is a 2" vent upstream of the toilet branch connection. In my opinion and experience with septic systems a 3" vent should be installed in that system. I would install a curb trap with a ventat the foundation of the house & if possible without major remodeling convert the 2" vent to 3"

Jack Pieterman/Practical Plumbing

Toilets

Regarding w.c.'s and their flush-ablity.
We have a kitchen & bath retail outlet as well as a plumbing contracting company. We have found here in southern Ontario (Canada)the best flushing w.c's re; constantly flushing in 6 litres ( 1.5 gallons)and the amount that they flush to be;
2-piece Toto, Drake (Round front & elongated)
1-piece Toto, Ultimate (round front & elongated) The last renovation thet we did the client had us install two Ultimate, RF w.c.'s and she claimed that she had to tie plank across the behinds of her two youngsters.
There is a web site available which has a Cnadian & U.S. study on flushability of the latest 6 litre w.c.'s. It is; www.cwwa.ca
Jack pieterman

Jack Pieterman/Practical Plumbing

Toilets

Regarding w.c.'s and their flush-ablity.
We have a kitchen & bath retail outlet as well as a plumbing contracting company. We have found here in southern Ontario (Canada) the best flushing w.c's re; constantly flushing in 6 litres ( 1.5 gallons)and the amount that they flush to be;
2-piece Toto, Drake (Round front & elongated)
1-piece Toto, Ultimate (round front & elongated) The last renovation that we did the client had us install two Ultimate, RF w.c.'s and she claimed that she had to tie plank across the behinds of her two youngsters.
There is a web site available which has a Canadian & U.S. study on flushability of the latest 6 litre w.c.'s. It is; www.cwwa.ca
Jack Pieterman

scrook_2

probably...

a Yankee's fan too! Sheesh!
Though the point is well noted.

Go Sox!

P.S. if only we could get them to stop chanting & selling those vulgar tee shirts after the game -- I dislike the Evil Empire as much as the next BoSox fan, but that doesn't excuse utter tastelessness at the expense of either the team as a whole or its infielder(s) in particular.

jackchips_2

Hey,

a point/counter point. Come on Scott, show that New Yorker that we "Bostonians" grasp many things.

Plus, we have something no one can take away from us (except maybe the Cubs) and that's the phrase:

"Wait till next year". Take that Bob.

DAVID R. FAUVER

toilet / toto

have been using toto for about 6 or 7 years now. best bang for your dollar. only one customer in that time have ever disliked. one other thing we do is to never install a tee directly under commode, we always take off with a nice sweeping fitting to a wye. guys put tees in and the water flushed wants to go straight down in stead of sweeping away. my personal opinion it can cause the momentem to bunch up. and the vent installed properly is to keep the traps from syphoning or moving more then an inch.

Don Walsh

Closet on Wood flooring

Setting a closet on a wood floor is a NO-NO in my part of the world too. Local code prohibits it from being done.
Go Indians! Farm club to the major leagues!

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Kal Row

i have enough service calls behind me

that disproves that - who is paying for the studies, i dont trust the epa, i think it was colonel stapp that said - "studies and statistics let you see where the truth - LIES"

jerry scharf

a lone voice in the woods

I am not such a fan of the Toto toilets. They do work well, but they co$t and I find their seats uncomfortable.

I am personally a fan of the Niagara flapperless toilets. No flapper valve to leak, higher head drop on the flush, no sweaty tanks in you live in steamy areas and they work well. They also cost about half of what the Totos cost. You can put any seat on it (even a Toto if you like that.) Unless someone has their mind made up, this is what I use.

San Jose California utilities offered a replacement toilet program and used only the Niagara's. After a couple thousand toilets, they had a better than 97% customer satisfaction on the toilets (I talked to the person who ran the program.) Given how much people hated the original set of low flush toilets, 97% is an amazing number.

In head to head flushing tests (sorry, I just couldn't resist,) the Niagara flapperles fell just behind the best Toto and ahead of many of the Toto models.

my opinions are worth all you paid of for it.

jerry

Ken D.

Toilets

I've always had good results from the Gerber products, although I had some special requests for Toto too. And they do work well.

Mike T., Swampeast MO

American Standard Toilets

It's been my experience that A/S is EXTREMELY particular when it comes to replacement parts. While it might be another problem yours sounds like water is not flowing from the tank to the bowl at the designed rate/and or volume.

Put one old high-flow toilet (A/S) in my old house as I know the original soil line under the basement floor needs a good slug of water now and then. Took forever to adjust properly--even using A/S parts--but it's the best flushing/cleaning toilet in the house.

Kal Row

yeah especially since..

you can buy the gerber ultra-flush for 275 from

http://easycarts.net/ecarts/terrylove/Gerber_Toilets.html

it has about 65 feet drain line carry - a must for basement installs

DaveC

the best

http://www.caromausa.com/products/toilets.htm
25 golf balls at .8 gal flush! Full 4" throat.