Hot air to hot water conversion

Unknown

He bought it this way with the furnace in the middle of the basement . Why the furnace couldn't have been located closer to the chimney is anyones guess .

Another crew started this job before - dressed up the new boiler and installed baseboard on the 2nd floor .

Unknown

Wide , open basements

It's like letting caged tigers loose . Phil , Brian and myself installed the baseboard on the 1st floor , removed all the old crap and ductwork , piped up the boiler and heater and tied in most of the piping on day 1 . Day 2 , me and Phil finished up the piping , wiring , fluepipe and new oil line . This was one of those rare jobs where everything falls into place . We got done early enough to go and help Brian and Paul on a 4 zone Weil off the floor in a Levitt house - but thats another story .......

The homeowner wanted to be able to plug in the boiler and heater to a generator if the power goes out . What we used is a single throw / double pole switch , and the 2 outlets in picture 2 . The switch breaks the power and neutral wire going to the panel . He's going to make a double male extension cord to power the units .

Was it a good idea to isolate the neutral also going to the panel ?

lchmb

might want to check

I might be off track on this but I believe you need more than a manual switch in order to plug in a generator to that line..You might want to ask an electrician or check with the power company. I believe you are against code with a double male plug also. Someone plug's it in and forget's to throw the switch the lineman working near the house might get a little shocked to hear that generator start up..literally..Nice job on the install..100 percent improvement over what existed..keep up the nice work

Steamhead

The Dead Men

did this type of conversion all the time. Scorched-air left a lot to be desired then, just as it does now.

If you listen very carefully, you can hear the Dead Men cheering!

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kevin coppinger_4

It's a beautiful sound.....

hearing duct work hit a cement floor being taken out. kpc


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Dave Palmer_3

did you

cash in the aluminum duct for beer money? Do you guys have to sleeve the oil line? looks good Ron,Dave

Unknown

I'll check on that

For the reasons you said , we were debating on putting the outlet in at all . Do you know if there is an isolation relay that is made for this type of situation ? Maybe a special type of circuit breaker for the heating units ? Thanks alot , by the way whats your 1st name 1chmb ?

ed wallace

conversion

great job but why did you go with a oil fired water heater vs an indirect ??

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Unknown

Steamhead , we don't do many

furnace to boilers jobs because there aint too many furnaces around here . But the ones we do have will often be equipped with an A coil .

It was amazing how much dust accumulated in th ducts - we had a white out in the basement when I mule-kicked the return off . Thank you Steamhead .

Unknown

I gotta say

It was fun beating the crap out of the tin .

Unknown

Dave

Naa , we give the aluminum to our shop guy . We keep the mungo though . The price of scrap copper is pretty high now , I might be able to upgrade to a case of Rheingold .

We didn't sleeve the oil line . We have the Bock so close to the boiler because the homeowner is getting a Roth tank to install on the left side - barely 5 feet of room between the tank and heater . Thanks Dave .

Unknown

We didn't go for the Bock

It was there already . We just moved it over near the new boiler . The heater has a date code of 94 , so he might be looking for an indirect sooner than later . We also put a coil in the boiler , if he decides to go that route . Thank you Ed .

Glenn_3

Yea Ron

Ditch that male to male cord.

Use a Double pole double throw switch. one position power to boiler is normal, other position, I would leave a short cord with male end hanging there. When using generator just use regular cord from generator to your male end. No chance of back feeding.

You were right about switching neutral too. If you don't and generator has GFI receptical it will trip as soon as you plug it in. (neutral and ground are tied together in panel)

jerry scharf

transfer switches

Ron,

I have always done this with a panel.

The nice way (IMO) is you bring line AC into one pair of breakers (assuming 240V1ph) and the generator to another pair of breakers right next to it. There can be either a mechanical interlock or an automatic transfer to keep both from being on at one time. Then you just take all the circuits that you want to have backup power and run them out of the box. I'm using a SquareD QO series box and interlock on my house, I have some unusual power demands but am not doing whole house recovery. I bought a really nice Onan generator about 8 months after Y2k produced none of the predicted failures.

They also make some $50-100 boxes that are prebuilt for this and have around 6 circuits. These have a recessed male plug that you run the 4 wire generator output to. I have no idea which brands are best.

They do not isolate neutrals on these services as I have seen them. My understanding of this is that you would never want to make the power connection before the neutral, either by switch timing or failure.

Also I'm jelous of all you folks that have nice basements with wide open spaces (dreaming of tools without wheels.) Living in earthquake country, the costs of putting one of those in is just too much. So I'll look at these pictures and drool.

another great job

jerry

harvey

Off the floor

I'm amazed at the number of boilers like this that are sitting on the floor. Does everyone like crawling on their hands and knees? We always set them on 12" block. You'll also save on flue pipe and copper.(see first pic)

lchmb

first name's Tom and yes as far as I know if you do not have an auto break then your required to have a block break in your panel so that you cannot send power out of the building...The auto unit is very expensive..manual a lot cheaper.of course..:)

kevin coppinger_4

I hear ya'....

I too have noticed that more than once. Especially w/ a steel boiler. I usually use a couple of cinderblocks w/ patio blocks on top. I was once told that most of the problems w/ oil burners comes from dust being sucked up from burners being so close to the floor. I also think that it would be easier to work on if it was off the floor..... jmo..kpc

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Unknown

Good point

I forget sometimes about the guy who has to come back and service it . The boilers we install in garages have to be 18 inches off the floor - these are the ones that can be serviced while standing .

Unknown

Jerry

Thank you for the info . We deal with an electrical supply around the corner of the shop . I see the oil driver every morning , so I'll send him over there and see what they got .

With the wide basement , its a rarity over here too . Not because of earthquakes , but space is at a premium . This was a great break from the usual clutter and we flew through the job because of the space . The owner already has plans to box in the boiler room to shoebox size and finish off the baement . Thank you very much Jerry .

scrook_2

several generator problems

1. male cord from the generator is illegal and very dangerous!

2. You need a DOUBLE pole double throw switch (DPDT) not single pole double throw (SPDT) so you can simultaneously disconnect BOTH the hot and the neutral lines!

3. (more minor) I would have used a twistlock if vertical, or would have placed the receptacle horizontal.



A simple alternate approach (if the AHJ will permit it) would be to connect the entire boiler system to the AC line via a short length of 14-3 SO cord and a 120V 15A plug (again I'd use a twistlock, but a straight should also be fine if not overhead) and adjacent to the AC line powered recepticle, in a seperate box I would install a second recepticle wired to the generator. Additionally I would a shut off switches on the feeds to both recepticles. Note you might be required to install Oil Burner Shut Off switch in *both* the line to the panel board and the line to the generator, located in the living space near the entry to the cellar or as otherwise required by code.

To switch over to generator or back you'd shut off th eswitches at the recepticles and move th ecord & plug from one to the other then turn the switch(es) back on. This way the recepticle/plug assy does not server as an interruption means and the generator is ALWAYS isolated from the AC utility line, while minimal cost is incurred. Refrigerators, freezers etc. could also be reconnected the same way.

It is, of course, understood that the generator is OUTSIDE and if a corded generator to house connection is needed a weatherproof MALE PLUG (as found on RV's for power hookup) would be mounted on the side of the house and an appropriate gauge (14, 12, even 10) cord would be run to the generator.

Failing this, an automatic or manual transfer switch could be be used -- esentiall a high current capacity DPDT or 3PDT switch specificly built for connection of generators to distribution panels in leiu of utility supplied power.

Re: twistlocks:
NEMA L5-15P is a 120V 15A plug, NEMA L5-20P is 120V/20A
NEMA L5-15R is the 15A receptacle, and L5-20R is the 20A recepticle. These can be bought in single or duplex, just like regular straight bladed recepticles, see: http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/productdetail.jsp?xi=xi&ItemId=1611704340&ccitem= for an example (about $30) and it's mate: http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/productdetail.jsp?xi=xi&ItemId=1611778160&ccitem= (about $15). If you place them horizontally (or maybe even support the weight of the cord) you could use straight blades instead at 1/2 to 1/8 the cost.

Unknown

Lotta info there

What we used was a single throw - double pole switch , and both the hot and neutral can be disconnected going to the breakers . Thanks for taking the time to write that out .

Matt Undy

generator codes

> first name's Tom and yes as far as I know if you

> do not have an auto break then your required to

> have a block break in your panel so that you

> cannot send power out of the building...The auto

> unit is very expensive..manual a lot cheaper.of

> course..:)

Matt Undy

generator codes

you do not need to berak the nutral. You MUST make it such that you can not connect the house service and the plug to the genrator at the same time. Square D makes a generator pannel which is about an 8 space main lug pannel with 2 backfed breakers and a mechanical interlock that prevents both breakers from being turned on at the same time. It for some reason costs around $150 wherease the breakers and pannel without the interlock tab would cost around $50. Not sure if the AHJ would accept a pannel with a field constructed interlock. I'll agian refer to the book "Practical Electrical Wiring". It will tell you what the NEC says about grounding and neutral connectiosn for a generator. Of course your local codes may differ from the NEC.

Matt

Matt Undy

double male plug

the double male plug is not allowed. I missed this part the first time. There are panel mount male plugs that will allow you to connect the generator without using a cord that isn't touchproof (also known as a suicide cord). When you correctly combine this wit a correctly interlocked transfer switch, there is no way to make the male blades of a plug live.

Matt

Matt Undy

If i'm reading this right, you disconnect the hot an the neutral, but you don't have any sort of interlock to ensure it is disconnected before the generator is connected, correct? If that is the way its done it is a violation.

Matt Undy

not to mention the assorted water that gets on basment floors form time to time.

Matt Undy

Is that old furnace a Perfection Stove Company Superfex gravity furnace? Was that ductwork original? It doesn't look nerly as old as I think that furnace is (though its the shoddiest workmanship I've ever seen in sheetmetal and that includes a gravity system that was made up of what apeared to be some sort of tar/asbestos board from the 30's). I would geuss that they placed the furnace in the center instead of at one end by the chimney to improve balance since it was a gravity system.

Matt

Unknown

Just call me an idiot

I never thought about the male end connecting to the junction box . If it fell out the male end would be live from the generator .

The homeowner knows about the situation now and will not plug a generator into the outlets . Thanks for the help Matt .

Unknown

It might have been gravity

We didn't bother to see if it had a blower in it , but we did carry it out by hand , it was light . Not sure of the make , but I never look at the old tags . The ducts did look kind of new , huh ? We don't see much warm air around here , but this duct job isn't too bad compared to other homes we seen .