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Condensing Tank Type Water Heaters......hb

heatboy
heatboy Member Posts: 1,468
in THE MAIN WALL
what is the highest quality condensing water heater you guys know of? Preferably, one that I won't be married to with service calls and will last 10 years.

hb

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Comments

  • Constantin
    Constantin Member Posts: 3,796
    How about Indirect?

    Triangle Tube Phase III units have excellent recovery rates and no moving parts (well, except if you excercise the T&P). Naturally, such a unit pre-supposes a boiler to fire it with.

    I read several online missives about the perils of owning a American Water Heater Polaris unit, so perhaps that's not the best choice for a no-call-back unit.
  • Robert O'Connor_3
    Robert O'Connor_3 Member Posts: 272
    Triangle Tube

    Also has gas fired comercial tanks with inner SS tanks that can be direct vent and sealed combustion. Lifetime warranty when used residential. 56 gal. is the smallest size.
  • hr
    hr Member Posts: 6,106
    It doesn't exist!

    I have Polarsis and Voyagers installed. 9 years of history on them, now. I'd build some call back time into the selling price!

    Several of my Polarsis owners have learned to change their own HSI's. Be sure to install Polarsis's up on blocks or a water heater stand to make servicing them easier.

    I actually have a few with 3 heating seasons on them without a call back!

    Also be aware of the blower noise when you site them. I haven't found a quiet one yet.

    hot rod

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  • Dave Yates (PAH)
    Dave Yates (PAH) Member Posts: 2,162
    We've used

    about a dozen of the Bradford White 99% efficiency water heaters over the past two years. No problems to date. Our installs have ranged from 40 gallon gas with residential input rates to an 80 gallon light commercial installation serving a laundry & four shower camp counselor building to a large commercial ASME model (currently seen in Contractor Magazine's feature article) serving 18 showers, 16 lavs, a mop sink and five Burnham DuoRads.

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  • bill clinton_3
    bill clinton_3 Member Posts: 111
    condensing water heaters

    The biggest issue with condensing water heaters has, as Hot Rod says, been the igniters. My experience with Polaris has been an average of about four years igniter life, however more recent ones have not been doing so well. A brand new igniter is now being introduced: maybe it will be better.

    Aside from igniters, and comparing only Polaris to Voyager, which are the only two I'm experienced with: The Polaris wins hands down. Far fewer problems. The design is better overall. I've visited the Polaris factory and am impressed. They go to lots of trouble with quality control and repeated checks. A lot of care is taken passivating the stainless steel. Have not seen Voyager factory, so cannot directly compare here.

    Noise and fuel/gas ratios have been an issue. However, with the coming of European 24v DC fan motors and the Honeywell venturi gas valve, those problems may be solved. Have installed several new Voyagers, up to 150, 000 btu/hr and been very pleased with the sound level near the tank. The sound at the exhaust can still be a problem as there is a fair velocity coming through those pipes. Take care in siting termination.

    Bill
  • heatboy
    heatboy Member Posts: 1,468
    I concur.

    Since most homes are heated with furnaces and more people want radiant, we have to use the heat sources that are available. While direct fired water heaters are ludicrous, there are not many clients that will opt for a $20K rebuild of their mechanicals just so they can have some warm floors. I am looking for an in between solution. Although, I know there really isn't one.

    I wish every home had a boiler and once I get my magic wand back from the repair shop, that's just whats going to happen ;-)

    hb

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  • Wardner
    Wardner Member Posts: 20


    Are the new air/fuel valve and DC motor going in the Polaris, or would it be the Voyager?

    Could the new hardware be a preparatory stage for making the hot water heater modulate? This would be a benefit for space heating applications.
  • hr
    hr Member Posts: 6,106
    I quizzed HTP about

    putting the Munchkin innards in the Voyager. The reply was something like "were look at it"

    Typically with the large volumn the cycle issues are really not that bad. The Voyager does allow you to change the differental, unlike the Polaris.

    I installed two Voyagers back in 1998. Both identical LP units. In one I have replaced 2 ignitors, and a burner update kit, and a motor. Close to home!

    The other, 50 miles from my shop, I have been back to a dozen timed. 8 ignitors, 3 circuit boards, 2 burner updates, flame rod...

    Same thing with the dozen Polarsis I have. Some are completly trouble free for 3 years, others need yearly attention. Although ONLY ignitors, so far. I run my Polars's fairly hot, as I use a FP HX for the radiant, and need at least 140 for the DHW side. maybe this helps ignitor, and condensation issues.

    ALL condensing & modulating equipment is sensitive. Initial adjustments, jobsite conditions, venting and combustion air, voltage (dirty power) LP pressures, etc.

    They take a bit more work to get them, and keep them, running. in my opinion.

    Is the trade off worth it? Million dollar question. When they purr smoothly they are a site to behold. When the fail repeatedly they are my most "trash talked" component :)

    Code compliance is still a sticking point. Wish the WH manufactures would stop avoiding this question.

    hot rod

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  • heatboy
    heatboy Member Posts: 1,468
    In other words.......

    why bother? I figure a dozen service calls would cost either me or the client $2,000 minimum. Not the best client relationship, methinks. Any fuel savings are more than eaten up by service calls. You have got to think about life expectancy, also.

    hb

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  • hr
    hr Member Posts: 6,106
    You've nailed the Catch 22, hb



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  • Mark Eatherton1
    Mark Eatherton1 Member Posts: 2,542
    If price is not a consideration...

    then why not a Vitodens hooked up to one of them super duper heat exchangers in a tank, like Turbo tech or whatever they call'em. You can keep the heat generator right in the sweet spot of condensing, and can replace either the tank OR the heat source in the long run.

    Whats your overall objective here HB? Saving money on physical plant, or saving money on operation?

    ME


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  • jw
    jw Member Posts: 62
    Voyager experiences

    HR;

    My personal experience with the voyagers has been that ones installed with the 2 pipe termination are most likely to eat HSI, while the ones installed with a concentric vent kit and with the intake on the concentric above the exhaust have been relatively trouble free. I think that the problem with HSI failure has to do with the fact that the ignitor is below the burner and if a drop of liquid h2o makes it onto the porcelain, it loses connection in the porcelain. The ignitor itself look fine, no continuity tho.

    Concentric effectively isolates the combustion air as a source for condensate or rainwater installed properly. It also increases exhaust velocity so that there is less chance of recirculation of flue gas. Also looks much sweeter!

    The other thing to do is on install, check the CO and make sure it is within specs. Too much CO will kill HSI as well as eventually destroy the HX.

    One plus of the voyager is that they have a model with an integral HX for radiant apps. Model SSVH-90 SSVH-130 and SSVH-199

    Hope this helps.
  • DaveGateway
    DaveGateway Member Posts: 568
    voyager

    John,
    I have a DIY Voyager in my home. It has always (2-1/2 yrs)had ignition problems! About 5% rate. Gets a LOC error about every 3 months. Hot surface ignitor is glowing, prepurge blower cycle seems OK, I can hear the gas valve click open, & no flame & then it retries? LP pressure has little effect, gas valve adjustment can make it worse at either end. Blower whines like a banchee! I have short 6' drops & out rimboard 2 pipe termination. 8,500' elevation & LP?
    Any ideas? & what does HSI mean?
    BTW, HTP support filters & ignores my calls!
    Thanks BP
  • Rudy
    Rudy Member Posts: 482
    DHW's as radiant source

    Is the Bradford White approved for space heating? State is supposed to have a sealed combustion unit. Most of my installs are basement only with some tile warming in new construction. Since these homes are drawn and built with forced air systems and specced with 90+ and power vented (ugh!!) DHW's the sheet metal contractor usually has to install a flue just for my boiler. Condensing boilers are usually too pricey for this application and I've been looking for viable alternatives also. Also, with city lot sizes and exhaust placement issues most direct vents go to the roof anyway. I've toyed with instantaneous and hi eff. tank types but have yet to pull the trigger on one. I usually don't even enable outdoor reset becuase setpoint gives me better response for floor warming on milder days. Fixed temp. DHW as a heat source has always intrigued me.
  • jw
    jw Member Posts: 62
    How old?

    How old is the voyager? I can see that your venting is probably too short. Installation of a concentric vent would probably help as would a new burner/collar assembly if yours is older than about two years. Newer burner has a different surface that works better with a LP unit, especially at altitude. Give me model and SN and I can find out if yours came with the newer burner.

    HSI= hot surface ignitor
  • DaveGateway
    DaveGateway Member Posts: 568
    voyager

    John,
    Mfg. date 03-99, installed 10-1-01
    SSVH90-45SA, SN C04F0254, has new 1200 board system, shop order# 964
    The table on pg. 7 shows an effective length of intake & exhaust 3" pipe + 90s + 45s = 34' which suppose to be good!

    I don't want to change 2 pipe vent thru my sheet rock, insulation, rim board & pretty brick exterior!

    Thanks for help BP
  • jw
    jw Member Posts: 62
    venting

    Read your post, thought the 6' was the length of the pipe. 34 equiv. feet is good.

    The concentric would be a good change. Require enlarging one hole for 4" PVC and all you would then see is a "mushroom" cap on the side of the home.No ells or tees. Would have to plug the extra 3" hole tho. (You are not venting under a deck perchance?)

    Email me, I should have info on burner tomorrow.
  • Doug_7
    Doug_7 Member Posts: 249
    AO Smith Cyclone XHE ?

    Anyone used an AO Smith Cyclone XHE™ (BTH) Commercial Tank Type condensing water heater ?? Sizes 120,000 to 400,000 Btu / hour with 94% to 99% efficiency. Burner is on the top which should avoid igniter wetness problems.
  • Cootman
    Cootman Member Posts: 2
    Look into Intellihot

    The longest life tankless hybrid water heater is the Intellihot.  It is the only one made in the US.  It has a 316L heavy wall fully floating spiral finned heat exchanger, which is the heart of any tankless.

    It is designed specifically for commercial applications and has a 6 year commercial use warranty.  In talks with the factory, I have found their tested life expectancy is 20 years.  Look into www.intellihot.com for the features.
  • Cootman
    Cootman Member Posts: 2
    Longest Life Condensing Tankless

    I can attest to the life of the only US made Commercial Tankless.  The expected useful life of the Intellihot is 20+ years.  The info is available at www.intellihot.com
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