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Steam system conversion
Steve P.
Member Posts: 4
Has anyone calculated fuel savings of converting from steam to hot water heating?(Sorry Dan). Looking at replacing a large Cleaver Brooks natural gas steam boiler with 2 hot water natural gas boilers.
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Comments
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The real question is...
After you spend a fortune making the conversion, will there be any savings at all?
I would suspect the answer will be:
Not in your lifetime.
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Likewise, I'm sure.
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Very true.
The time it takes for a pay back would be very long. Unless you are doing the work.
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What??
we've done that conversion in houses and have made the house much more comfortable and saved lots of money. Why those guys think it wouldn't work in a commercial size boiler I have no idea? It takes lots of energy to change steam to water and you burn lots of fuel to go through that transition. since lots of steam systems where oversized to begin with you typically can go with reset and save even more. A couple of Viessmann Vertomats would do the trick. you'd then be over 90% eff and condensing alot. When you fire up that big Cleaver how long does it run before it actually starts sending steam through the biulding?? whatever that time frame is your eff at that point is essentially 0% lots of heat going up the flue none into your biulding.Constant circ, outdoor reset can't see how you wouldn't save??
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My cleaver made steam at exhaust temps....
> we've done that conversion in houses and have
> made the house much more comfortable and saved
> lots of money. Why those guys think it wouldn't
> work in a commercial size boiler I have no idea?
> It takes lots of energy to change steam to water
> and you burn lots of fuel to go through that
> transition. since lots of steam systems where
> oversized to begin with you typically can go with
> reset and save even more. A couple of Viessmann
> Vertomats would do the trick. you'd then be over
> 90% eff and condensing alot. When you fire up
> that big Cleaver how long does it run before it
> actually starts sending steam through the
> biulding?? whatever that time frame is your eff
> at that point is essentially 0% lots of heat
> going up the flue none into your
> biulding.Constant circ, outdoor reset can't see
> how you wouldn't save??
>
> _A
> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=
> 254&Step=30"_To Learn More About This
> Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in
> "Find A Professional"_/A_
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My cleaver made steam at exhaust temps....
> we've done that conversion in houses and have
> made the house much more comfortable and saved
> lots of money. Why those guys think it wouldn't
> work in a commercial size boiler I have no idea?
> It takes lots of energy to change steam to water
> and you burn lots of fuel to go through that
> transition. since lots of steam systems where
> oversized to begin with you typically can go with
> reset and save even more. A couple of Viessmann
> Vertomats would do the trick. you'd then be over
> 90% eff and condensing alot. When you fire up
> that big Cleaver how long does it run before it
> actually starts sending steam through the
> biulding?? whatever that time frame is your eff
> at that point is essentially 0% lots of heat
> going up the flue none into your
> biulding.Constant circ, outdoor reset can't see
> how you wouldn't save??
>
> _A
> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=
> 254&Step=30"_To Learn More About This
> Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in
> "Find A Professional"_/A_
0 -
My cleaver made steam at exhaust temps....
> we've done that conversion in houses and have
> made the house much more comfortable and saved
> lots of money. Why those guys think it wouldn't
> work in a commercial size boiler I have no idea?
> It takes lots of energy to change steam to water
> and you burn lots of fuel to go through that
> transition. since lots of steam systems where
> oversized to begin with you typically can go with
> reset and save even more. A couple of Viessmann
> Vertomats would do the trick. you'd then be over
> 90% eff and condensing alot. When you fire up
> that big Cleaver how long does it run before it
> actually starts sending steam through the
> biulding?? whatever that time frame is your eff
> at that point is essentially 0% lots of heat
> going up the flue none into your
> biulding.Constant circ, outdoor reset can't see
> how you wouldn't save??
>
> _A
> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=
> 254&Step=30"_To Learn More About This
> Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in
> "Find A Professional"_/A_
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Steam conversion
If the building has large areas that are overheating and you are going to put in individual apartment zoning, then I suspect that your payback will be several years( 3-10). This will help a lot if you can use the basement area as apartments and if you are eliminating wet returns below the floor. This is a major project and is best done when there is a gut rehab of the building and the building is being converted to condos where the look of baseboard and the use of individual thermostats will enhance the sale.If you are going to keep the large radiators and try to run the building as one zone- Forget about it. BTW the output of these radiators will drop by 25% when used for water rather than steam.
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A LOT...
...of steam systems get torn out in the name of "efficiency". Some of these steam systems have been so badly butchered, that they're economically beyond saving. Hot water, in those cases, is the logical retrofit. However many, if not most, of these steam systems could be resurrected to the point where they will come very close to the efficiency of a hot water system, at a fraction of the conversion cost.
The same energy that gets put into water to turn it into steam gets given back in the rads.0 -
Why not replace the Cleaver
with two or three steam boilers, either in a staged configuration or with one small boiler feeding each steam main? The latter setup would give you several different zones in the building to work with. Both would give you some redundancy should one boiler fail.
If you favor a staged, modular setup, talk to Noel. Of all the steam enthisiasts on the Wall, he knows this method best.
To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"All Steamed Up, Inc.
Towson, MD, USA
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
Consulting0 -
Sorry, Joel....need to see some raw data
case studies? statistics, fuel bill comparisons versus degree days..... Mad Dog
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Yes! and he has made it work too!!!!!!
Mad Dog
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