Peerless Pinacle 180 vs NTI Trinity 150

K Penniman

After researching this forum and talking with my contractor, we decided to use the P180 to supply the radiant heat in my staple up. The P180s were no where to be found for months here in Vermont and parts also seemed difficult to find for future repairs. So we discussed the Trinity 150 and opted for that boiler instead. I just received my final bill - the job was completed last week - and my contractor billed me for the orginal quote. I thought the Trinity was less expensive? I trust my contractor and will bring this up with him, but I feel I'm at a disadvantage.

On a separate note, we stapled up 7 200' runs and 1 50' run (with the valve adjusted) of Onix tubing in my 10-yr. old small log home. I pushed up 1" celotex foam insulation between the joists and tried to provide a 2" air gap between the subfloor and reflective foil. There are still inconsistencies in the floor temp and I'm trying to discover why. I'm wondering if one reason for the varied temps is because I may have pushed the foil to close to the Onix, perhaps contacting the tube and foil. Is it worth stuffing some R19 up there too?

This morning, it was 18 degrees outside. I had the thermostat set at 68 but it was 65 in the house. It seems that the temp varies by about 5 degrees around my themostat setting, usually 3 below to 2 above. Is this normal?

So far the heat feels great, with the exception of the inconsistencies. The boiler is a not "whisper quiet" like I had expected, but I'll be isolating the room it's in. It seems like it's working pretty hard at 18 degrees outside. The water temp gets up to 145 according the temp gauge near the manifolds.

Thanks for any of your commments!

Brian

Trinity

What are the numbers on the Sentry display saying?Do you know what settings your contractor used.

Brian

K Penniman

I don't know what settings he used. I'll ask him tonight. When the boiler is running on themostat demand, the sentry has been reporting that water temp is at 150-165, outside temp is 18, and gas usage is, well, all over the place. I think I've seen it get as high as 160, but I'm not sure. I'll check when I get home. Is there anything else I should check or ask?

Thanks for the fast response!

Brian

Sentry

> I don't know what settings he used. I'll ask him

> tonight. When the boiler is running on themostat

> demand, the sentry has been reporting that water

> temp is at 150-165, outside temp is 18, and gas

> usage is, well, all over the place. I think I've

> seen it get as high as 160, but I'm not sure.

> I'll check when I get home. Is there anything

> else I should check or ask?

>

> Thanks for the

> fast response!

hr

Do you have

a heatloss calc and design done on Watts Radiant Works?

It should indicate the supply temperature required. Also the amount of loops required to meet the heat load.

What is the required BTU/ sq. ft. load?

With this you can compare what the design called for and what you are actually sending to the floor. Staple up and suspended tube require fairly high supply temperatures, often.

If the supply temperatures are in line with the design then you could have flow issues. partially closed valves at the manifold? Plugged Y strainer? correct pump size?

hot rod

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Brian

Sentry

The Sentry numbers seem a little high but that may be where they were set.I have installed many Trinitys and compared to other power vented appliances they are whisper quiet.What kind of floor construction do you have?That will determine the insulation underneath.Rule of thumb is minimum 3x R value below as above.Also how many zones do you have.

Brian

jw

As to the temps \"hunting\"

You probably have the typical round honeywell stats. Typically they have a 5F or 6F differential and are really made for forced air. I would recommend that you install some 1 degree differential stats at a minimum. My favorite stats for radiant are the PID logic, or as honeywell calls them "adaptive intelligent" such as a T8600 series. These smart stats will allow a radiant panel to have a setback and work properly. When I was a contractor, these were the basic stat I used for almost every heating application.

Insulation; My favorite is to use Rmax style iso foam with the reflective foil and use full sheets fastened to the underside of the floor joists and then tape the seams with foil tape. You get full seal from air infiltration, the joists see the same temp for the full depth, which is preferable to having the top of the chord hotter than the bottom, It is generally easier and less messy than cutting to fit the joist bays and less waste! Plus the reflective surface has a tendency to stay cleaner due to less air movenment and dust infiltration.

jw

K Penniman

Floor construction

One zone.

About half of my floor construction is hardwood over a standard plywood subfloor. The other half is tile over plywood. Both the tile and wood floors have been as warm as 78 degrees in the past days.

The rule of thumb is 3xR value of what, the floor? I'm not sure what that may be... The R-value of the 1" celotex is 7.2. Divided by 3 is 2.4. What does this suggest to you?

K Penniman

I'll check into that. However, I'm struggling with the bill as it is (no debt financing). I've already cut the celotex and installed it in the bays. I've bought some 6-1/2" R19 to stuff in the joists under the celotex in my favorite spots to hang barefoot, like the tiled kitchen floor.

I'm finishing the basement so the ceiling will be drywalled soon. Think I should try the foil tape before I loose access? What else might I consider to gain efficiency and heat?

Thanks!

Brian

Hardwood

What type and thickness is the hardwood.Sounds like their isn't enough insulation under the floor.
Brian

Brad_3

air leaks

I would think if you have ANY air infiltration into any of your joist bays, it will affect your temps and sap heat away. More insulation never hurts, puts more heat where you want it and less where you don't.

K Penniman

that makes perfect sense, but what is the best product to acheive that? maybe i should ask, what's the ideal approach (considering the celotex is already up) and what's the easiest approach?

R19 batting?
foil tape?
something entirely different?

this is encouraging! by the way, with some adjustments last night, the floors were 82 this morning and room temp was precisely at my thermostat setting (68).

DaveGateway

Peerless Pinacle 180 vs NTI Trinity 150

Hello,
I will guess that your cabin is about 900ft2. & not insulated very well. You didn't say!
Looks like about 28btuh/ft2 was meeting your heat loss. With outside temp. & wind un-reported? If it gets colder outside, you may have to crank up your Trinity temp.
Are you using the Trinity 150 for DHW? If not, it is about 4X oversized! The Peerless Pinacle should cost more, as it is worth more!
Does your pump have enough head? Check your return temps. vs. supply temp. Smells like one of those legionella systems, is it?
Good Luck, you may need it!

K Penniman

hi bill, thanks for the response.

the one zone i'm heating is 864ft2. the log walls are R14 and it's very well sealed. the windows are R3 and i get a lot of solar gain. on cold nights, i generally prefer to heat the house with my wood stove. we have many nights where the ambient outside temp is -20 and with windchill can get to -80 (happened several times this past january).

i have a separate 40 gallon water heater. i wanted to replace the hot air furnace with radiant floors to provide for more even heat, less noise, less dust, and more physical space in my walkout basement which i'm finishing. the trinity will ultimately heat that space as well, about 6502ft.

we're using a taco 007 for the one zone presently piped up.

K Penniman

by the way, the ceiling is stuffed with R19. the house was constructed in 1990. no noticeable draft issues (i re-caulked it just last fall).

DaveGateway

NTI Trinity 150

Where are you at? -80 wind chill WOW!!!

You may have to max out your temp. on the Trinity & if you still have cold areas (end of loops) you may have to put another 007 in series with your 1st one.

Sooo for your log walls to be r14, they would have to have an average thickness of about 14", that is: as much at 18" as there is at 10"? Also, I hope that r19 stuffed into the ceiling doesn't mean compressed!

I will guess that you will have to burn alot of wood to stay warm with your system at -80 wind chill!

Good Luck BP

K Penniman

Central Vermont. They close the ski resorts down at -80. The mountains had a couple of -100 days in January. I live on the side of mountain in the woods, it's fairly protected. Northeastern Log Homes claims the logs are R12-R14, R14 with solar gain. Last year was pretty cold and I burned about 3-1/2 cords of wood. My average propane bill was $44 a month in 2003 (hot air, hot water, range and dryer). I'm hoping the replacement of the hot air furnace with the Trinity will reduce that bill further.

Just for clarification, I don't have cold areas, I have joist bays that are warmer than others and I want to bring the temps in the cooler bays up to par. Sounds like I should use additional insulation and seal off any air gaps.

Brian

Photos

Would you be able to post any photos of the boiler hook-up and manifold set-up.

Thanks
Brian

K Penniman

Thanks all. I will record more info and take pictures tonight. I really love this forum!