Condensing Boiler Choice Viessman or Peerless

Bill_25

I have a question or two that I hope to get some help on. I am working with Radiant Engineering on a complete system for my new home. We are looking at using ThermoFin C installed under the sub floor (3/4 Advantec), I have floor trusses so insulating will be a challenge. Any ideas?
The main question I have is they quoted me out a Viessmann Vitodens boiler. I have read about it and it looks like what I want, however the nearest dealer is 7 hrs away. My local supplier has a Peerless Condensing Boiler that looks like a nice unit, but I have not found anyo pros or cons on this unit. Anyone ever install one of these? Maybe with a Tekmar control?
I will be doing the install as well as the service on this myself but not having parts in my local area has me unsure.
Thanks in advance!

Bill_25

Bill_25

Condensing Boiler Viessmann vrs Peerless

I have a question or two that I hope to get some help on. I am working with Radiant Engineering on a complete system for my new home. We are looking at using ThermoFin C installed under the sub floor (3/4 Advantec), I have floor trusses so insulating will be a challenge. Any ideas?
The main question I have is they quoted me out a Viessmann Vitodens boiler. I have read about it and it looks like what I want, however the nearest dealer is 7 hrs away. My local supplier has a Peerless Condensing Boiler that looks like a nice unit, but I have not found any pros or cons on this unit. Anyone ever install one of these? Maybe with a Tekmar control?
I will be doing the install as well as the service on this myself but not having parts in my local area has me unsure.
Thanks in advance!

Constantin

viessmann vs. Peerless

Note: I'm just a homeowner

My understanding is that the Peerless Pinnacle condensing unit is a HTP Munchkin under a different name. Since both the viessmann and the Munchkin are condensing units, their efficiency is about the same. However, the Munchkin appears to cost 2x less, even if you include a nice Tekmar control.

I would also give serious thought to patronizing the product of a local company rather than the need to get someone to drive 7 hrs. to get a problem fixed. I'd go with the Peerless.

Radiant Wizard

Cannot compare

the a caddilac to a volkswagon and that's what you are tryng to do. The Vitodens blows away ANY other wall hung boiler out there. Just look at the construction, the burner and the fact that I haven't seen one post on this site concerning something going wrong with the Vitodens. I have seen posts on the others.

Ken_15

Even Volkswagon makes some extremely fine vehicles:)

Dave L_4

Viessmann

In my opinion the Viessmann Vitodens is not a boiler that is suited for a homeowner installation. I am quite sure that Viessmann would not want to support a homeowner installation of their product. This is not a waterheater.
Just one mans opinion.

Dave L

Constantin

Beg to Differ

I don't disagree with the notion that the Viessmann product may be superior. I don't know it, never installed it, do know that my Aunt loves her oil-fired Viessmann. However, it is entirely possible for professionals to spoil a good thing. See this thread over at HVAC-Talk: http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?threadid=46697

This is why I recommend the Peerless. It's not that the Viessmann may not be a better product. However, it is product that the local installer is not familiar with. They won't know how to troubleshoot it as well, nor how to take advantage of its unique features vis-a-vis a Peerless/Munchkin. With something as critical as heat, I wouldn't take the chance.

However, I would love to hear what distinguishes a Viessmann from a Munchkin, considering they cost 2x more than a Munchkin + Tekmar control. No warranty information is available on the Viessmann site as far as I can tell.

Kal Row

what's wrong with a weil-mclain ULTRA

even more efficent and less expensive and easier than both -
and they have been running it for 15years - that's longer than the viessman or the peerless, hello? am i missing something?

S Ebels

Couple things to consider

As far as the Viessmann vs. Pinnacle/Munchkin..... I guess the best thing I can say is Viessmann does what they do and Munchkin does what they do. The only similarity between these two pieces of equipment are that they burn gaseous fuel and they are roughly the same efficiency.

The Munchkin is a fine piece for the price, the Viessmann is a fine piece for it's price. The prices for these two are about $2,500 different. Do you follow what I'm saying here? They are both worth their respective asking price even though there is a big difference.

If both boilers were identical in all respects other than the burner I'd still pay the extra for the burner on the Viessmann. It's that good!

If both were identical in all respects other than the heat exchanger, I'd still pay the $2,500 for the HX on the Viessmann. It's that good!

It's not that the Munchkin is junk. Not at all.I've installed a lot of Munchkins and they work pretty darn good, it's just not made with the same philosophy in mind as the Viessmann is. Munchkin wanted to bring its' unit out on the market at a given price point and they succeeded very nicely in doing so. Viessmann basically doesn't give a rat's hind end what it costs, they just want to make it as good as it can be made by human hands. Period. They have accomplished this without doubt. There is nothing else out there in the same league with the Vitodens as far as condensing boilers go.

Now, all that being said, you know what your budget is and you also have to consider service and parts availability. Those are pretty basic to ANY piece of heating equipment.

S Ebels

IMHO

Aluminum heat exchanger. Given the water quality issues in a lot of installations, I'm going to steer clear of Mr. Ultra. In Europe, where the Ultra HX comes from, they take boiler maint. a little more seriously than here in the USA. 90% of homeowners couldn't even tell you what brand of boiler they have let alone when the last service was done. Probably half of the installers/service people out there don't know what to look for as far as maint. issues on a condenser are concerned. Give me Titanium anyday. It has just a little higher tolerance for "unforseen circumstances" than aluminum does. I don't think that can be disputed.

Ted_5

Can you back up those numbers?

The AFUE of the Vitodens is 94.2%, Munchkin AFUE is 92% and Ultra 230 is 92.8% and the 155is 93%. The two small "V" come with a variable speed built in pump. The biggest things that sets the "V" over the others is 1. the S.S. 316Ti heat-X and the way it is constructed. 2. The burner and gas valve, no blower motor failers that I have had or heard of and no recalls! The "V" was first put in use in Germany in "96" and that is the boiler we have over here, not just the heat-X and the rest buy others? There is more to look at then $.

Ted

Ted_5

Where are you located?

What state are you in?

Ted

Kal Row

mine and everyone else's initial reaction too

you have to actually look at the 15 year test data from WM and the actual experiences from people like floyd on the wall here, to change your mind - sure we'd all like titanium - but at around $30 per pound - na, it not happenin
the real life fuel saving are amazing even when abused in non condensing situations like baseboard on a real cold day with return temps of 140+ and cold zones opening up into it

while slant-fin always produced the most bang for the buck in boilers, the ultra for now, has that title in the condensing world – over the years, the only WM failures I’ve had were “installer” failures – trust me - they are not going to blow their name with the ultra

ps if money really was no object - id go for the viessmann

Uni R

Cannot compare

Wiz, I hope that you are implying that the Vito is the VW in this comparison and that it's the Phaeton W12 model you are talking about. It's a 12 cylinder, 4 wheel drive sedan on air adjustable suspension with a 4 independent zone HVAC system that sells for just under $100K US. Whoops... I mentioned pricing in here. ;-)


http://www.vw.com/phaeton/features_us.htm

Steve Kelly

Viessmann v.s. munchkin v.s. ultra

I have installed all of the above, You get what you pay for. The Viessmann will save you more energy due to its control pkg. and its heat exchanger design. It is very sensative to its piping and system design. A great product.
The Munchkin/Pinacle is a very simple boiler. I have had issues with the equipment in the field. It is not service friendly. It does do the job, and for the cost should be considered. The ultra is a nice boiler mid range between the Munchkin and the Vetoden. It has had some issues with the Alum. heat exchanger. Unlike metals in construction. The ph of the water is critical as well as the mineral content. But, short of this a nice pkg.

All will do radiant. The Viessmann is the best of the 3.
Easy to program, full modulation, reset and system controls built in. The Ultra would be next. then the Munchkin.

I have 15 Munchkins that I have serviced and installed. I have 5 Vetodens that we have installed, and 2 Ultras.

I have been in this Business for 20 Years 18 in Radiant Floor. I know boilers. ask Dan. For the money Viessmann is the best buy. Keep an eye on Buderus, they are about to release their version soon.

Henry_9

When did they

> I have installed all of the above, You get what

> you pay for. The Viessmann will save you more

> energy due to its control pkg. and its heat

> exchanger design. It is very sensative to its

> piping and system design. A great product. The

> Munchkin/Pinacle is a very simple boiler. I have

> had issues with the equipment in the field. It

> is not service friendly. It does do the job, and

> for the cost should be considered. The ultra is a

> nice boiler mid range between the Munchkin and

> the Vetoden. It has had some issues with the

> Alum. heat exchanger. Unlike metals in

> construction. The ph of the water is critical as

> well as the mineral content. But, short of this

> a nice pkg.

>

> All will do radiant. The

> Viessmann is the best of the 3. Easy to program,

> full modulation, reset and system controls built

> in. The Ultra would be next. then the

> Munchkin.

>

> I have 15 Munchkins that I have

> serviced and installed. I have 5 Vetodens that

> we have installed, and 2 Ultras.

>

> I have been

> in this Business for 20 Years 18 in Radiant

> Floor. I know boilers. ask Dan. For the money

> Viessmann is the best buy. Keep an eye on

> Buderus, they are about to release their version

> soon.

Henry_9

When did they

let you out of your cage? I thought that you had given this place up. Gimme a buzz and I wil let you know about the control package that I am pushing through with KWE. Full integration of multiple boilers, DHW with comfortrol interface, direct and secondary reset with tie in to a 200 series actuator on the secondary loop.

I am hoping to have it built into a package that will combine the Cascade-S and basic comfortrol setup so all is fed back into a main VR20 processor and I have the full range of reset for boilers 1-3. The package will be a fundamental Viessmann design with all the plug and play options and full read-out, you know how good Matt, Jeff and Kaz are.

My main hope is that I can get away from a multiple HK1 system and still provide the full inclusion of feed back that the comfortrol can do alone for one boiler.

I know this is vague, but call me and I will fill you in on all the details and why I am pushing for such an advanced control device.

Henry

Constantin

Interesting

I had no idea the price difference is a "mere" $2,500 between the Vitodens and the Munchkin. Ever catalog and contractor I looked into listed the Vitodens WB211-44 @ and the Munchkin M140 with twice the price difference you're indicating.

I'd like to hear more about the Viessmann burner and the HX. Since I'm a practicing manufacturing engineer, you can shower me with the construction details. For example, I'm a bit perplexed that the HX in the Vitodens has to be much better than the one found in the Munchkin - either seems to do the job as far as the AFUE ratings go.

However, I'm not aware how heating equipment manufacturers can manipulate AFUE ratings the way AC/HP folks do it with SEER ratings. SEER and EER don't necesssarily correlate, much to the chagrin of power companies. Is the AFUE rating similarly compromised?

Next, better materials don't necessarily indicate a better burner/HX, just a more expensive one. For example, take the many instances posted on the net about the high failure rates alleged of AWH Polaris units. That's stainless in there, yet lots of folks are having leakage issues with them. It would appeat that construction/manufacturing is the most likely cause.

Also, what may be most relevant for HO's is statistically-relevant failure rates of either model and how they correlate to their respective construction techniques. Any notes on those? Thanks for your thoughts!

Constantin

The HX is not made of Ti

The case of my computer may be, but not the HX in the Viessmann. They use 316Ti, a high grade of stainless steel. Very nice stuff and not nearly as expensive (or as difficult to form) as 100% Ti. I used a lot of standard 316 plate and bolts on the boat, as it's really good at resisting corrosion in a marine environment... even if it's not the strongest stainless around.

Still, I'd like to know why you prefer the viessmann, as I'm still considering it's use in my home. However, I have yet to see a fantastic reason why the Viessmann is so much better than a Munchkin in an environment with only radiant zones (8) and a indirect water heater. Could you be so kind and enlighten me? Cheers!

Joel_3

ultra

and others with aluminum HX... I have yet to here one rep from any of these companies explain to me how an aluminum boiler will handle corosive condensate. This was tried and failed miserably in the hot air gas market 20 years ago. There is now not ONE hot air gas furnace (condensing) with anything but a stainless HX, they won't risk it. Saying W.M. wouldn't risk their reputation on something like that is not true. Consider: Ford edsel, Chevy corvair, York heat pipe furnace, Lennox pulse, and others with aluminum HXs that all failed, Rubber tube, original erie boiler boss, early Super Stor, glowcore, York gas engine heat pump,The black and grey plastic vent pipe that failed on everybody who used it. I can go on how much time you got????

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Joel_3

VW!!

Yup! I want a new Toureag with the turbo diesel v-10 that thing rips and will get mid 20sMPG. In the example above the caddy was the cheapy boiler and the VW the better one right? Actually in all fairness caddy is working hard that new CTS-V is very nice and so is the SRX but after all those years of biulding crapbox grandpa cars you gotta ask your self if it's not 10-15k less than the lexus , Infiniti or Beemer why risk it? at least with the others you know you've got a quality piece with good resale the caddy .....well we'll have to wait and see but I'm not going to be a G.M. beta tester

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Bill_25

location

Ted,
I'm in the Upper Peninsula of MI.

Kal Row

simple - thickness

the air heat exchanger are practically foil whereas the ultra's is so thick it should be able to take the nominal 30yrs of corrosion inside and out - though peoples old 30yr mindset is going to have to change because they will all be technology obsolete in 10 -

you sound like my customers, every one i tried to sell it too said that "there will be no aluminum boiler in my house!!!" - hey, i will install whatever you want - i am not a WM salesman, i happen to love slant-fin products – but the real world experience with the ULTRA, just doesn’t support the prejudice against it

Constantin

Thank You Mr. Kelly!

I really appreciated the HX materials you sent me. Indeed, the Viessmann HX and the Matrix burner are impressive technologies, cleverly built, and appear fully- debugged. I'll simply have to re-examine my earlier decision to go with a Munchkin once I meet my heating subcontractors.

Considering gas prices around Boston, it may be prudent to re-examine the boiler decision... oil may be a less expensive bet when gas prices hover around $1.37/therm. Even during this cold winter, the average per BTU price of oil versus gas was 20% lower. That adds up, even if there are significantly higher initial installation costs for oil.

Our current Williamson furnace is going to get dismantled soon to make way for the cribbing and other materials needed to lift the house off its foundation.

scrook_2

Boston...

I think I'd go oil over gas here in New England in a heartbeat, the farther S or W you go the less clear the choice becomes though, as the gas becomes cheaper than here in the NE end of the country.

Constantin

We seem to be at the end of a very long straw...

...up here in the NE for natural gas, even if the LNG terminal in Everett offers some degree of relief via imports from abroad. What bugs me the most about gas prices up here is that of the $1.37/therm I pay for heating, about 93 cents is just for delivery. I don't know what makes delivery so expensive for Nstar... but at least with oil you have a choice about who gets to supply you.

Furthermore, you can bunker oil in the summertime when it's cheaper and ride through much of the winter w/o refilling (dependant on tank size and whether you have nightly beach parties, of course). I was thinking of going with Roth safety tanks, ~1,000 gallons should cover most of the winter. We have the space for them...

One thing I really like about gas boilers though is how you can modulate them to match a load from 20-100% of capacity. That's a really neat feature. I would think that having a thick water jacket like the Viessmann Vitola lines allows a degree of thermal mass to compensate for the lack of modulation.

Then, there are condensing gas furnaces/boilers in many more shapes and sizes than oil-fired ones. The only oil-fired condensing boiler I know of is the Monitor FCX, Adams Manufacturing makes condensing oil-fired furnaces. The 95% AFUE Monitor FCX comes in only one size, about 1/2 of what I need.

I suppose I could install 2 MCX and have a two stage control, but with that kind of up-front investment, energy prices would have to go through the roof to justify the installation costs. The Viessmann Vitola line of oil boilers looks interesting and offers 87% AFUE in a single non-condensing package.

Speaking of Viessman, they sell the condensing oil-fired VitolaPlus product in Germany. My guess is that it isn't sold here (yet) due to the high sulphur content of oil. Their manuals specifically mention the need for low-sulphur oil...

S Ebels

Burner and HX differences

Hard to describe, pictures are worth 1,000.............
But here goes.

The Munchkin HX consists of individual SS tubes which are formed into a C shape and siliconed (or some other bonding agent) into what you would call the supply and return manifold. The burner is also stainless steel and is of fairly conventional design.

The Viessman HX is made from 316Ti steel. It is a one piece, rectangular cross-section, radially coiled tube. Very close tolerances between each succesive loop of the coil. (.8mm if I recall). This HX has much more material and mass than the Munchkin while still remaining light enough to provide near instant heat transfer. I have never heard any quoted numbers but I am guessing that the whole HX would be 20-25 ft long if unrolled. The Matrix burner is a titanium mesh grid. It's a little smaller than half of a soccer ball. When it is firing there is no flame visibile per se. You just see an intense bright orange glow. Flue gases from the burner pass between the "sections" of the HX at speeds approaching 45MPH. Combustion is very complete, very clean, very low CO and very low NOX. I think that what Viessmann has acheived with this burner and HX design is a near linear heat flux across the whole HX. There are no hot spots, the btu's are near constant across the entire HX. This is just my theory, developed by trying to figure out why they did it this way. If that is indeed the case, there would be very little difference in stress at any point on the HX. This is a good thing.

Probably not engineer grade descriptions but that's about what I can do without boring everyone to death.

They are so different it's difficult to make a valid comparison between them. As I said in another post, they each are worth the asking price and they each do what they do.

BTW, the $2,500 figure was just a figure, not an actual difference in cost.

S Ebels

Your observations

Regarding the Vitola are correct on all counts. There is little, percentage wise, to be gained from an oilfired condensing boiler when 87-88% are fairly common on a Vitola. My Natural Gas fired unit runs in the high 85% range and I have it a bit "detuned" until I can drop a stainless flue liner in when the weather breaks. I'll wager that the Vitola will be running just fine in 30 years also.

S Ebels

Your observations

Regarding the Vitola are correct on all counts. There is little, percentage wise, to be gained from an oilfired condensing boiler when 87-88% are fairly common on a Vitola. My Natural Gas fired unit runs in the high 85% range and I have it a bit "detuned" until I can drop a stainless flue liner in when the weather breaks. I'll wager that the Vitola will be running just fine in 30 years also. Another nice feature of the Vitola is that you can interchange gas and oil burners on the same boiler.

Constantin

vitola looks great...

except that I see no mention of a sidewall config in the technical data manual they way they have it in the Vitodens series. Does this mean that I have to have a chimney with the vitola? It can be done but the cost of piping all that from the planned utility room would be somewhat prohibitive.

Hmm.

S Ebels

Sidewall venting

The Vitola is configured for chimney venting out of the box. You can however, add an external power vent for sidewall use ala Tjernlund. These of course come wired and configured for use with the Vitola. No guessing as to how it hooks up.

Steve Kelly

Condensing Boilers

Gentelman:
I have been addresing many of your questions off the Wall.
Please feel free to share the technical data and CAD drawings on the proper piping and control logic.