Meet....(ME)

Weezbo

i just came back from the site.....read every thing i could find :)))) except the bob villa stuff:) one day i met this bob villa he was trying to sell me some cherry wood kitchen cabinets as a promotinal gimick for the local university donations and to chirp up the plumbing company that was selling kitchen cabinets....he says I will sell these to you for a great Price...like what i ask, he gives me a figure... nah too much i say... he says do you know who I am? i say no and i dont care either..do you know who I am ? I am the guy who was offered these things yesterday for a thousand dollars cheaper:))))

Mark Eatherton1

The Duncan tank (naked pictures)

12 hours and $1,000 later, here's the waste heat recovery system.

I'm bushed, the wifeys hungry and the system is ready for its first trial run.

I'm going upstairs to take a shower and take TLLA out for some Mexican food.

In the words of Ahnold the Governator... I'll be bach!

Questions?

ME

Weezbo

hello!

where is the Purple Pipe?
i thought that purple pex is supposed to be part of the extraction process of waste heat from drainage systems? or is this another delusion i suffer from ..i have been seriously considering the use of the purple pex for years and this is the first time that i have seen the heat extractor. what are the out going temperatures of the grey water after going through the collector? roughly how many BTU's a year pergallon will be extracted?do you have a layout of the energy to savings payback formula provided by the manufacturer? ok where do we get it?:) inquiring minds want to know!

jackchips_2

One question:

How come you haven't bought the Mrs. a front loading washer? They save a lot of water. lol

Looks great ME.

Mark Eatherton1

I'm waiting...

for this one to die!

It's 15 years old and still ticking. We generally wash in cold water, so the washing machine is not a part of the waste heat recovery program. However, when it DOES need warm or hot water, it will be using recovered btus!

I can emphathise with the Maytag repair man.

ME

Unknown

How do you do it?

Tell us more. Can't believe the things you get Wet;-)

You just keep learning & pushing the envelope more & more. Don't we all wish we could be ME. It'll take me a lifetime to catch up to you 20 years ago and now CHPs & this? Plus Buderus's new wall unit for Tom & Dennis.!!! You kill me Mark. How do you do it all? The Denver "Radiant Mafia" has got it all goin on.

I'll be back.

Gary

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Mark Eatherton1

Will

purple dashes do?:-)

I obviously can't properly color the pipes until they're fully insulated:-)

Okay, there's the skinny. The heat exchanger is made by Doucette industries for GFX Technologies. On their web site they claim 60 percent efficiency in a single pass stack application. I don't doubt it. It is an all copper heat exchanger, and even though it is not soldered to the core pipe, the 1/2 copper has been formed such that it has an excellent heat transfer capability.

They have approval as a double walled vented heat exchanger.

I'll be strapping the old Hobo on this one to see exactly what it does. Trust me, I WILL share the data when it comes available.

You can get additional info at http://www.gfxtechnology.com/

Got any purple spray paint??:-)

ME

hr

How about a nice

piping schematic from your paint program. Hard to figure what's going where, when and how

hot rod

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Weezbo

Thank you .

I feel so stupid at times ,because i think of stuff and try to find something like what i am thinking and search hunt and give up after a few decades.....let me reveal some bright idea i had a urge to share with the inventor of the Wirsbo residential fire sprinklers ....why not hook karo cooling mats into the mix use a plate exchanger on re circu loop through a recirc underground ,heat sink,loop coupled with an indoor out door humidity sensor?...man i am stupid. Purple stripes will do:)

Mark Eatherton1

Your fish...

is my demand, or sumpthin like that...

Space availaibility issues, if you catch my drift...

Here's the corrected picture.

ME

Mark Eatherton1

It's not fun being ME...

I'm usually stuck down stairs, while all the other kids are out playing kick the can and cool stuff like that... I need to get out and get more sun!

Thanks for the kind words. As my very busy brother in law says, "You can sleep when you're dead, right? ;-)

ME

Mark Eatherton1

Actually...

the Euros are burying tube in their footers and using it to cool the entrances to their buildings. You're not a crazy as you think you are:-)

Take it from a MadMan... You're OKay...

ME

GEO_3

hold on

We can't space heat with potable water. But we can heat potable water with sh.... I love it.

leo g_90

i will no longer

address you as prof! from now forward, you are "the mad scientist"!!!!!

mark, you are just to much brother. i dream about the stuff that you actually do!!!

adopt me please!!!!

leo g

jerry scharf

falling water

Mark,

Nice to see the water going the other way.:) How many gpm are you pushing through the GFX?

jerry

Mark Eatherton1

Not sure quite yet...

I had to put a rheostat on the submerged pump because on high speed it draws 9 amps, and pushes WAY too much water.

I'm working on the 003's capacity as we speak. Thank goodness for Siggys Software!

ME

Roger Litman

Playing the Devil's advocate

I calculate that if the system is 100% efficient and you are using the 64 gallons of hot water per day(U.S. govt), that you are saving about 40,000 BTu per day or about 100$ per year. Is this worth the investment in time and materials needed in a residence- In a laundry- now that is another story.

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Mark Eatherton

Curmudgeon...

Roger, you raise some valid points. Obviously, I'm not doing this for the economics on a residential application. It's greatest potential is in commercial opperations, I.E. laundramats, restaurants and other areas with single use hot water applications.

But it's kinda like taking a shower in solar heated hot water. It's just hot water, but it FEELS SO GOOD, knowing I'm conserving energy...

I have a feeling this system is going to evolve into a summertime attic pre-heater for my DHW system this summer. Latent solar if you will...

ME

ScottMP

Mark

The heat exchanger you used looks like a style that was shown at our trade show here a fews years back. My question is, what are your thoughts of just installed that HX on a drain line that would preheat the cold water to the water heater ? When a shower or WM was drawing hot water the water down the drain would preheat the tank ?

Scott

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Mark Eatherton1

One pass...

That's all you get if it is in the main stack. As heat exchangers go, the only time it would work at high efficiency would be when you were taking a shower. As the hot water flowed out of the shower drain and into the main stack, cold water would be counter flowing through the outer coil, thereby transfer BTUs efficiently.

In the case of a device that filled, then used then drained, (I.E> washer or dish washer) the draining water wouldn't always match up to the hot water draw. Consequently, your exchange efficiency would be poor, hence my design. Keep the hot water around for more than one pass to extract as much heat as is feasable.

Now, if there were some way to add thermal capacitance to the heat exchanger so it could "hold" the heat draining from an appliance for the next hot water draw, then its efficiency would increase. That would involve something on the order of coating the whole heat exchanger in concrete, or a similar material. That would make the heat exchanger a LOT bigger too, which could cause problems with a 5-1/2" stud cavity.

Maybe dipped in molten lead, numerous times...

ME

Cliff Brady

Volume right for dishwasher

I haven't done the calculation but the volume of the half inch coil on the four inch stack must be close to that of a dishwasher fill, so at least you should get good btu recovery even though it is pulsed (but hotter) event rather than continous like a shower. All that copper and the water in it probably holds a reasonable amount of btus if insulated.

Unfortunately, my dishwasher is the only above basement fixture not draining into the GFX G3-60 yet.

Any chance a washing machine drain pump might have the head to get the water up to the basement ceiling?

Dave Yates (PAH)

Hey ME

They're made just a few blocks from here. We've done work in the building & it's like a copper jungle out in the factory - very sexy looking gleaming tons of copper.

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Kal Row

and i thought that i was the only

certifiable one on the wall - this is too cool -
"one last question" (colombo...) how much is electric in your neck of the woods?

Mark Eatherton1

Cool...

Do they have armed guards walking around the place? With the copper prices doing what it is, all the plumbing shops around my shop look like Guantanmo Bay. Barbed wire, consantina ribbon, lazer motion detectors and on and on..

ME

Mark Eatherton1

Cliff...

I can't tell you how many washers I see in old Denver pumping water up to the main floor level. THeres PLENTY of head on most new washer pumps. Thats why the UPC went to 2" drains serving automatic washers.

The thermal capacity of the all copper heat exchanger can be calculated, I'm sure. I'll try and look it up if I find some spare time laying around the basement here... (don't hold your breath:-))

ME

Mark Eatherton1

Last time I checked...

it was around .07/KWH

ME

Brad_9

attic preheat

Mark,

I've thought about using the heat in the attic for inexpensive dhw preheat but have never run the numbers or figured what heat exchanger to use. I'll be waiting to hear what you come up with.

My attic is too small and too full of insulation to even get into, and hope I never have to, but still curious.

Brad

Mark Eatherton1

Solar Attic

http://www.solarattic.com/fig1_710.htm

Mine will be somewhat different. Mine will probably be based on the dran back principle used by solar DHW companies forever...

ME

Kal Row

in nyc we pay almost 3 time that

so the pumps arent so cheap to run, wonder if it still pays

so it's solar on sunny days and laundry on cloudy days and if you need yer shirt cleaend on a sunny day you'r SOL

just kidding - this would be great in commercial applications, like small plants, larger plants are supposed to already have all this in place - otherwise they lose s fortune

Mark Eatherton1

It definately has to do with the economics...

and WILL be taken into consideration in the final analysis.

I'm still sturggling with the thermal performance side of things. The electrical consumption issues are the easy ones to establish...

TFYI

ME

hr

I have been thinking attic

heat recovery also. Plenty of attic fans used in SW Missouri! I need to interface the water side HX to exisiting fans!

Need to be concerned with condensation, however. Cold water in hot attics! I thought of getting an old Modine, or similar unit heater with a drip pan and drain below.

I am already getting 90° plus water from my one solar panel. Not sure I can use all the solar DHW water I get currwently. The solar attic recovery system has been moved down the list a bit.

Be interested in seeing how you'all make out with ideas

hot rod

hot rod

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Brad_9

rafter cavity risers

I was thinking of plenums at the ridge and eave with some sheet material attached under the rafters, so the rafter cavities feed the ridge plenum. Then ducting the hot air down to the utility room and then through a heat exchanger. That way, no water in the attic to freeze, and condensation might be easier to control down below too. Not sure about the fire code acceptance of this idea though.

Brad

Mark Eatherton1

Dismal results

Greeting wallies:-)

I've had my first weeks worth of data downloaded into my PC and have converted it into a visual format to share with everyone. The results are less than I thought they'd be, and after some thought and consideration I'm making some changes to the system.

As initially set up, the holding tank is kept full to the overflow point (approximately 24 inches high on an 18" diameter tank). When hot water is used, it flows into the top of the tank, landing on top of water that is at approximatley room temperature. When the differential controller sees this, it starts both the tank pump as well as the HX pump. At best, I'm raising the preheat tank from 45 degrees F to 70 degrees F. Not bad, and better than nothing, but not nearly what I'd hoped for.

Here's my thoughts. Dillution is KILLING me. The relatively hot water coming from the shower/tub is being dilluted by the tepid water sitting in the tank. Barely enough water temp differential to warrant turning on the pumps.

I need to drain the tank after each extraction to avoid dillution. I've incorportated a small bypass so that whenever the tank pump is running, water is being dumped into the drain. Theoreticaly, this will lower the tank standing level and will allow the HX'er to see the hottest, undilluted water temepratures it can see. This will result in higher temperature differentials, and BTU's extracted.

Whooda thunk:-(

So far, I've only seen the extraction process running once when the tank pump could not run due to a lack of water being in the tank(tank pump now also float activated, wasn't before).

These changes have resulted in a higher preheat tank temperature. I will let it run for another week under the new program and see what happens.

As a possible third configuration, there is a function on the control that will allow an output signal from the control when the extraction pumps are off. This way, when the Delta T is down to 5 degrees F, and the whole extraction process ceases, I could start the draining process, and completely drain the holding tank.

Your thoughts and input are welcome..

Guess this is why they call it experimentation eh...

ME

jerry scharf

Not surprised about the water dilution

Mark,

I thought I mentioned something about this, but the results were more than I expected. I remember thinking one undiluted pass followed by a separate recirc

What I had suggested at the time was a plastic pipe drain with the top open for overflow and a small drain hole at the bottom to allow the tank contents to empty slowly.

I now realize to do that you need to also protect the pump from coming on before the tank fills sufficiently.

looks like it's becoming more complex. Good thing it's "research."

jerry

Mark Eatherton1

Actually...

what you had said was

Date: February 08, 2004 01:14 AM
Author: jerry scharf (scharfatgriefplacedotorg)
Subject: A couple of comments



Mark,

looks cool. Definitely has me thinking.

I am getting ready to use a GFX in my house. They were very exact in saying the jacket cold water had to go from bottom to top or the efficiency will drop.

Also, it's minor, but I would the bring the gray water in below the waterline to help prevent the hot water from being stuck on the surface and exiting too quickly. Maybe just a pipe extending down inside the unit is all that's needed.

If you modified the storage tank a little more, you might be able to get some more work out of the gray water. If you had a full speed overflow pipe and a slow speed drain down lower, it would temporarily increase the water volume when the hot water comes in, allowing to stay around as long as possible. I'm imagining something simple like an L pipe with an open top and a hole drilled in the side at the drain down level.

have fun, jerry

I'm afraid I'd have still had a problem with dilution even with your idea.

Most recent modification, add orfice to tank circ pipe to create enough back pressure to induce even more bypass to drain flow.

And yes, you are correct, that's why they call it research AND development:-)

Just who the heck are "they" any way???

ME

Weezbo

Ok *~/:) i hab my thinkin cap on.

here is a outside thought...were there a way to place a small coil where the drainage first entered the Gas tite tank,....and it had its own small compartment in the tank,,,....such that the water in the compartment was more closely akin to the waste water temp....this small compartment would have a SPILL OVER ridge a bit higher than the bottom of the drainage fitting to the dwv.....then when the water was pumped up through the new weezbo gizmo:))) it would take heat off to the ME gizmo because the tepid water would be being pumped thu the heated waste water in its own compartment then carry those btus over to larger heat ehchanger which would further reduce the btus chances to escape from the house ,then as this grey water transferd the btus over to the gert(ME)coils cold water (potable side) it would probably boost the out put a bit ok? ... now i have to ask about the Sump pump...is its flow rate really fast like 12 gallons a min?or are you having to size it according to the maximum fixture units serving the devise?(total fixture load) it really interests me...in Alaska anything we can think of to help keep a btu in the building envelope a while longer appeals to most of us.