Clogged Nozzle Riello BF3

bruce pirger

The other day my Buderus G115/21 with BF-3 refused to fire. I could hear the three attempts, and then had to reset. Turns out, the nozzle was very clogged. Installers came out, this unit is about 8 months old, and took it apart...and it looked nasty. Probably was this way for a couple of weeks...but this is the first time it failed to ignite.

What causes a clogged nozzle? Oil filter was relatively clean. He did adjust the burner to the "new" Riello paramters for draft, pressure, extension into the boiler, etc.

What can be done to "prevent" this from happening again?

Also, the "new" post purge control has been installed since December and has been flawless. With the no-fire, I expected to find this as the problem, but the boiler was clearly not stuck in this mode and I could hear the failed attempts to ignite...so I new it was not the post purge.

techheat_2

Some ? s

Single pipe or two? Garber filter?

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lchmb

couple more ?'s..

Did the tech replace the filter? if so how bad did it look..I am in New Hampshire and have run across a lot of build up in the oil this year. Talking with tech's from different oil companies they are seeing the same problem..

Ken_15

Do you have the "double filtration" as asked for by Riello? Was the nozzle changed the last time the filter was, has the pump strainer been checked?

J.C.A._3

How about,

The age of the oil tank? Has/did anyone check the bottom of the tank with the old "feel" method, and note when they started to encounter resistance(sludge)?

Is it top feed or bottom feed from the tank? If you suspect a fuel problem, have your oil company take a sample and send it for analysis. Sid Harvey' offers this service and will give you/the tech DETAILED instructions as to where to take s sample(s) from.

Let us know what you find. Inquiring minds want to know. Chris

bruce pirger

Hi All:

Everything is brand new...tank, boiler, burner, plumbing, and the filter, as of June '03.

Single line system, tank is 10' away, not even, and the line is from the top of the tank.

Filter is a single filter...I guess I don't know what it is called...but the standard "paper" filter.

Yes, that was changed. The original installer came out to find my problem. He's the installation/service "boss". He said the filter didn't look bad. He didn't really have any explanation as to why it failed...

Trying to answer all your questions...just the one filter, new tank, new fuel, not cold and gelled or anything.

It is the direct air intake BF3 burner.

I had no post purge controller for about 3 months...since it kept failing, it was removed and bypassed. When it was installed in December, a new nozzle was also installed...to prevent any problems that baking the nozzle (without the post purge) may have caused.

Are nozzle problems like this in general a fuel problem? I'd think so...not sure what else it could be. What else could it be?

After I called and reported the problem, I pushed the reset once again...for the third time...and of course it fired on the third ignition trial. He arrived when it was still burning...and when it shut off, you could here it continuing to burn inside the boiler. Is that the oil laying on the floor of the chamber?

There was a little soot buildup on the direct vent...but not too bad. The little "deflector plate" around the nozzle looked pretty cruddy of course. The ignition "points" were also a little sooty. I assume that is all standard.

Cleaned it all, put in a new nozzle, new filter, adjusted the combustion parameters, measured them all (no smoke, right CO range, flue temp was maybe 285 or something, I don't remember exactly) Flame in the boiler looked "normal", it looked a little dirty inside. I have a free cleaning coming in April...so waited on that.

About 10 days before the failure, I did laundry, dishes, and jumped in the shower For the first time ever, I had to adjust the cold water in the shower to keep it warm...I thought it VERY odd...but chalked it up to the dishwasher/washer going together. 53 gallon indirect...so little boiler is matched for the house. Radiant inside. Works great. 0.6 gpm, 55,000 BTU/HR heat load, gotta love it! Was very glad to understand the low hot water...

Everything has been flawless since...vent looks clean still, starts on first attempt, etc.

Is Riello like a Porshe? High performance, but high maintenance as well?

Thanks

S Davis

Double Filteration??????

I have had some trouble with a couple of Buderus 115/21s using a Riello F3 burner, smoke/sooting replace the nozzle and they run fine. I have talked to buderus and riello and have not been told about the need for two filters.

S Davis

Weezbo

riellos good oil burner

it is almost sounding like a Leaking nozzel rather than a clogged nozzel. i will say this also,i do not use the settings for weil mclains or buderas they suggest i start with riellos settings and start from there.i belive pre and post purge cycles have a definite value and gotta say that needs to be addressed.

S Ebels

All of the above

Failed to ask whether the burner was ever tuned in properly in the first place. Tuning an oil or a gas burner is surely NOT just a matter of setting the "dials" where the manufacturer suggests. Those are merely starting points. It sounds to me like a combustion test was never done to tune in the burner the way it should be. If this wasn't done I'll bet that the inside of the comb chamber and the passes are sooted up along with your burner. Get someone in there to do a proper test with an analyzer. Anything else is just guessing.

Weezbo

S ebels correct. dont just \"set the dials \"

Mark Hunt

A voice in the wilderness!


And what tools do we need to adjust oil burners????

You guessed it, a digital burner adjusting tool!!! They come in different colors too!

Easy way to tell if ANY attempt at setting the burner was even attempted, go look at the flue piping. If you don't see a hole that has been drilled into the flue pipe, no test was ever performed.

Mark H

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Ken_15

Sorry, it is the Pensotti boiler and not the Riello burner that wants double filtration. Sometimes I type before I should!!!!

Wayco Wayne_2

Looked at

a Buderus today we installed in Nov. It was not firing and I found the ring around the nozzle that swirls the oil had a bunch of carbon build up on it. I brushed it off and it worked after that, but why the build up. Also a rust colored soot in the combustion chamber. I don't work on oil so I don't know if this stuff is normal or not. I sub out the oil burner part of the install. Please advise me so I can make sure things are OK. . WW

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Weezbo

Wayne.....

off the top of my head it sounds like the stack temp is a bit too low,and quite likely the amount of air into the burner is a bit too low. right now you may have like a 2 smoke.

Unknown

Actually , youre right Ken

Our I should say , you were right - the Riello Mectron series had a little aluminum filter that was supposed to be installed before a regular filter ( I think the brand name was Combu ? ) . From what I heard , each and every one of those little babies was taken out - either because the gasket in them leaked or they filtered too much and clogged up fast .

Ken_15

The doubles we put in are simply a 1a-25 followed by a garber. Sid Harvey sells them premade packages.

(I couldn't find my reillo reference to the double anywhere!!!)

J.C.A._3

Good memory Ron!

I also remember those "small canister" filters (Combu IS right). They WERE origially part of the package. We also had tons of problems gettings the gaskets for them . I think they were made of "Buna-N". They would swell so badly on a change , that you HAD to have one handy on every change. On "time testing methods"(snicker!!!) we found that, much like the pump strainer gaskets, they would shrink back to original size, if left for about a year, to dry. Every Riello burner I had , had a wire tie or tie strap with the previous years gaskets hanging from it. If the tech. didn't have one in the truck, they were used as a standby.As I recall, an old toothbrush was the best cleaning method for the steel secondary filter in the Combu can.

My! how time flies. The things we remember make us "old timers" in the eyes of the puppies. Then again, that's why we're called it in the first place! (looking back FONDLY!) Chris

Mark Hunt

You need


to do a combustion analysis on it Wayne.

Doesn't sound like your sub has done one.

Jim Davis does a GREAT combustion course if you get the chance.

Mark H

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S Ebels

I'd agree

The Buderus has internal flue baffles that can be repositioned or removed to increase the stack temp if needed. Increasing the air is just a matter of opening up the shutter. Both of these can affect efficiency to a substantial degree. It should only be done whilst watching the flue gases and temp with an analyzer.

Cosmo_3

That's a nice feature

I have a lot of 115's, and 215's installed. The stack temp adjustment plates are awesome. When you have to vent into an outside chimmney make sure you keep those stack temps high enough to prevent condensation....

I spec Viessman first now, but Buderus makes a good boiler for the money....

Cosmo Valavanis
Dependable PHC Inc

Ken_15

Where was the nozzle dirty? Was it the strainer that was plugged? Or the outside? Strainer = dirty oil/ sludge problem. Outside = combustion problem (from bad fuel to air ratio, partial plugged nozzle, bad set up - elecctrodes, z, etc, draft, stack temp)

S Davis

Set Up

I don't know about bpirger but I am using a PCA55 to set up my combustion everything dialed in perfectly.

S Davis

Jim Davis

Nozzle clogged-filter clean

Having worked for a wholesaler that sold 5000-10000 oil filters a year when I kept hearing stories like this I became very suspicious. Just how good are the oil filters we are selling. The answer was they were lousy. It came to the point that if a contractor had a wool or felt oil filter on his system nothing I recommended would ever keep the system from fouling up.

bruce pirger

The fellow did measure the combustion parameters...CO in the flue, temperature, smoke test, and the draft in the firebox.

He measured the smoke and CO in the direct vent hood outlet...which is all of about 5' max from the boiler exhause itself. I was a little surprised this wasn't done in a "test hole", but figured it was short...and that he knew what he was doing.

The smoke was 0...it was very very clean. The CO was right in the middle of the range...I forget exactly what...the draft was right.

The nozzle has "two" ejection points, right? Center point and an outside ring? This I think is what someone was asking me...The outside ring was paritially blocked and cruddy. The center i think was clear...but I don't know if I recall that correctly.

Like I mentioned before, he chnaged all the burner paramters, draft, pressure, position into boiler...per some "new" Riello specs.

Filter looked noraml he said...not excessively bad at all...and everything is only new.

I'll keep my eye on things...things seem to be going well now. My timings on the indirect H20 don't seem to show any considerable differences...I'd think if I measured these before, presumably I would have measured a noticable different.

Must get all my thermocouples set up with my PC sometime...LOL.

Thanks gentlemen.