Homeowner seeks opinions on boiler choice - Dan H.

DanHolohan

Would you mind answering a really basic question on how to compare boilers? I'm looking at replacing an old Crown rated at 120,000 BTU, installed in 1987 with either a Buderus or a Burnham (more on why below). It is a "tankles coil" hot water system and baseboard heat. The house is a 5 bedroom colonial, about 3500 square feet. I am looking to expand the house (finush an attic, add a bedroom and perhaps an oversize family room), and would prefer to have sufficient capacity in the new boiler.

My oil supplier also has the service contract on my unit. They will replace it with EITHER a Buderus or a Burnham. They will fit either boiler with a Riello, Beckett, etc burner. I currently believe the Riello is the best, but I'm open to suggestions here also. They suggested the> Burnham V3 or V4 as the best choice because I can keep the tankless coil setup I have now and save the cost of adding a boilermate for hot water (at $1500+). And the Burnham bolier itself is cheaper than the Buderas boiler without a boilermate. They also indicated that they do not always have parts for Buderus in the service trucks when you call in an emergency,but will have them for a Burnham. I was surprised to hear them talk about the weight of the units (500 pounds for a Buderas versus 640 for a Burnham), and really wasn't comfortable that I had gotten a good picture or an unbiased opinion.

So I called Buderas and got a basic rundown. Besides the talk on metallurgy and optional outside temp sensors, I recall most clearly the statement that oversizing may cause the unit to short cycle and cause more parts wearout.

My limited research into hydronics has led me to believe that the Buderus (I assume a G115/B34 is sufficient rather than the G215 series) may be a "better" boiler while the Burnham is a "simpler" one. But I am no expert on castings, designs, and the reasons why someone would suggest one versus the other. No heads up comparisons seem to be available.

I can't tell which setup is more reliable, lasts longer, leaks less (a problem I have now with the old Crown and hate). It is to some extent a dollars and cents question, but more important is the question of what unit is most likely to let me leave the wife and kids at home without worry.

Can you provide any heads up comparisons? Have you any suggestions?

Dean

ScottMP

My 2 cents

For what its worth ....

Both are fine boilers, allthought I don't feel that a tankless coil is a good investment these days.

Why run a boiler a boiler off a high limit with little insulation ? Thats a big chunck of CI to keep warm.

Parts for a Buderus ? They come with Honeywell controls and gas valves, what parts are not available ?

Not a big fan of Amtrol boiler mates.

I use Buderus alot. I like the thicker insulation, been told its a better casting, and I like the control package thats available. Some will say the control package is weak and not worth the money. I have not had ONE call back with a defective ecomatic control. I like the satinless steel burner tubes on the gas model.

Both boilers are available with a Riello, no diffence, but we get high effecience numbers off our Buderus oil units usually around 87. We don't use Burnham so I don't know how the fair.

Burnham is a good strong American boiler with a Great company behind them.

Thats all I can think of right now.

Guiness in a can hhhmmmm.....its allmost time

Scott

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techheat_2

My opinion

First,get the proper size unit. Do a heat loss,rather than sizing off the existing unit. Second, a triple pass boiler{Buderus,Biasi etc} is more efficient than a single pass pin type{Burnham,Peerless,Weil etc} Take a look at a cutaway drawing and it is self- evident. The triple pass will be more expensive and will require an indirect for DHW adding even more cost. Given the 20 year plus lifespan of these units and the cost of heating oil,operating cost should be a larger factor than primary cost. As far as Beckett vs Riello, a couple of years ago it was Riello by a mile,however the newer Becketts are functionally equivalent. Go with whichever you prefer. In the final analysis I'd rather have a properly sized and installed pin type boiler than an oversized or improperly installed triple pass. All else being equal the triple pass is the better value

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Harold

Amtrol comment

Could you please explain why you do not like Amtrol indirect tanks?

techheat_2

I second the

Boiler mate opinion! too many premature tank failures,use a plastic tank. The coil is installed through bottom of tank, a real #$% to change and so much labor its usually not worth it. Go with a good quality indirect

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Unknown

I guess I don't see what you see

As I look around the net, I see most oil boilers are 84%-88% and I know this to be true by my own installation experience. The pin type boilers, in some sizes, are higher rated than the three pass boilers, in some cases.

What hasn't been mentioned is the square feet of surface area inside EACH type boiler effects the numbers, as well as the type of construction.

I guess that leaves insulation. Where insulation is important (steam systems and exposed hot water systems) I heartily agree that those 3" are extremely important. On jobs that the installer leaves every pipe bare, he obviously thinks the heat lost is still in the structure. Of course, on steam systems, 1" of insulation is required on the piping and boiler to allow them to work properly.

There aren't any residential steam boilers made with more than 1" of insulation, that I know of.

American boilers aren't as far off from the European boilers as contractors may indicate, in oil, non-condensing, models.

It might be different if the insulation mattered, like outdoor boilers (where the piping would also be insulated, because it WOULD matter), but since we're just talking efficiency, I don't see it. The boilers are all similar.

Check some out....

http://www.crownboiler.com/products/res_oil/free_c_2.asp

http://www.slantfin.com/spec-xl2000.html

http://www.buderus.net/products/detail.asp?id=1

http://www.weil-mclain.com/netdocs/ratingswgo.htm#RATINGS

http://www.peerlessboilers.com/site3/productcenter/index.cfm?fuseAction=details&psID=4

Noel

ScottMP

Seen to many fail

One inch of insulation.

Plastic bladder fails.

Poor access to the coil.

Poor coil design, too tighlty packed.

Coils clog up due to the tightly wound bundle.

POOR responce from the manufacturer.

Difficult to use other control packages.

Yadda yadda yadda.

Scott


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jim sokolovic

How's your water...

in Bethpage (is this a neighbor)? A few years back, we had a lot of incoming rusty water in Lindenhurst. It collects in the indirect, and I had to flush the coil often. Good thing the piping was setup with ball valves and a drain for doing the flushing as thoroughly as possible. No problems lately with that, but it's something to consider. Other than that, indirects can't be beat!

DanHolohan

Not a neighbor.

He's in New Jersey. He can't post or answer because of the filters on his workplace system.

jim sokolovic

Yeah, those new 3 pass boilers...

look like they could use a couple of bricks shoved into the flue passages :^)

randy_4

go for the

Buderus style boiler. Your present Crown is probably leaking at the coil plate gasket. I would stay away from a boiler with any rubber gaskets (coil plate or between the section) as they will always end up leaking, some sooner than others. I would also stay away from Amtrol because of failures. Crown CT boiler and the Crown MS storage tanks are very good equipment. (just an opinion!!) oh by the way - don't over-size the boiler!

DanHolohan

From Dean

"Our water is generally fine. We have our own well.
We run a water softener to pull out iron and sulphur."

DanHolohan

From Dean

"Randy is dead on. That is exactly where the Crown leaks. And the relays are near that gasket. You get the picture."

Luke Lefever

What filters?

do they filter out stupid comments- if so, where do I get one. Just kidding. Luke

DanHolohan

If only!

;-)

Troy_3

Amtrol

I agree- too many leakers. But more than that- too little response from AMtrol. The most I received from Amtrol was $80 toward a new tank out of 8 leakers. And I'm not talkin labor. $80 off the full price of a new tank. NEVER AGAIN. Your actions and inactions have consequences. I didn't charge my customers for these premature failures. Screw me once- shame on you screw me twice shame on me.

Ken_15

I would pay now for the 3-pass and indirect. It will more than pay for itself over its lifetime.

Paul Pollets

My preference

would be a Buderus with Riello burner and Logamatic 2107 control and ST200 or 300 Buderus Indirect. As Scott mentioned, I've had too many failed Amtrol indirects and prefer to use Viessmann tanks most of time. The Buderus casting is more efficient than any comparable American product and the Riello is a 'Sweet' burner. I don't recommend using a "tankless coil" as they have a limited flow, and use too much energy when the boiler must maintain a constant temperature to maintain DHW temps. The Indirect is the far better choice.

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Steamhead

A good boiler is a good boiler, Dean

and that includes both the Burnham and the Buderus. I don't think you can go wrong with either one. And both manufacturers stand behind their products if anything does go wrong.

Tankless coils are horribly inefficient in all but the coldest climates. I'd spend the extra money for an indirect heater- but not one made by Amtrol! Burnham markets these units too, as does Buderus. My favorite so far is the Triangle Tube Phase 3, which uses a tank-in-tank design. I have one out there that has passed the teenager test- they have not been able to run it out of hot water- and it's only a 40-gallon tank.

What really counts though, is the quality of the installation. Instead of just going with your oil company, why not check out the Find a Professional page of this site? I believe there are quite a few contractors in Jersey who are listed there.

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Robert O'Connor_7

Boiler?

I'd stay away from a tankless coil if possible. Go indirect, but stay away from Amtrol I had a handful of bad Amtrol indirects go bad (leaks),and the support was lousy. The jury isn't out on the burners yet. Both Riello & Beckett are both good. You say the oil company will replace with either boiler? That sure is some upgrade. Go Burnham, the cost vs. years they will function. I think the Burnham will out last the Buderus by a good ten years. I think the parts availability factor tips the scales as well for Burnham. Why install the Buderus if your own service company tells you they might not have the parts...Robert O'Connor/Essex Co.,NJ

S Ebels

I'll go 3 cents worth

Here it is.

I love Buderus equipment. period. Installing a package where the control, boiler and indirect are all made to work with each other and function as an integrated unit is a huge plus. Buderus makes all three in house and has designed them to WORK TOGETHER WELL as parts of a whole not separate components. I don't know about the Burnham but the Buderus has a swing open combustion chamer door that makes annual cleaning a non-event. So simple you can do it yourself.

A tankless coil is a waste IMHO. Why keep your boiler at full trot 24/7/365 when you can store the btu's so efficiently in a well insulated tank. My boiler fires about 3 times a day in the summer to maintain the tank.

The 2107 control is bulletproof. Of dozens I have installed I have not had a single failure. Two of them are in houses that have been hit by lightning. TV's, VCR's, microwaves were all dynamited but the control lived.

I don't have any experience with the new Beckett burners so I can't comment on them. The Riello is the burner that is forcing all the other manufacturers to step up to the plate. As far as I'm concerned it's still the industry yardstick.

Out of dozens of Buderi we have installed we have had 1, yes 1 service call for a failed part. A vent damper on a gas unit. One draft inducer on a gas unit was also replaced due to noisey operation. That's it.

As for parts, what's to break on a cast iron boiler? The only items that would require replacement parts would be the burner and control.

JMHO

ScottMP

Robert

Why will the Burnham outlast the Buderus by ten years ?

What parts will not be available, since both come with standard Honeywell controls and the same burner ?

Scott

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clammy

buderus rule

The first and best reason to invest in buderus is 2 bolts and the combustion chamber and flue passes are open for cleaning and inspection ,baffles to adjust draft and stack temp.Unlike american boilers there is no combustion chamber to change every couple of years and as for the casting far superior to standard stuff top notch stuff more insultion on inderict and there boiler to .I've installed a coulkpe this winter ho loved them adjustable leg on both domestic tank and boiler the list of advantages goes on and on just make sure the people who install it take as much pride in there work as buderus takes in there units will be posting my last buderus install later this week still finishing up the boiler room good luck stick with buderus they are top notch peace and good luck ps that 2 bolt door assures that your unit is getting thourghly cleaned oil guys can be lazy and with a buderus it's a no brainer

Roger Litman

Sizing boilers

There is a method to determine the heat loss on your home from the oil consumption. Take 2.65( good for 0° outside design) and divide by the winter K factor (degree days per gallon) that you can get from your oil supplier. This will give you the minimum firing rate that you need and does not take into account any gain in efficiency from your new boiler. You MUST use an indirect or a storage tank to insure good domestic water and it is far better. Tanks that use stainless steel seem to last the longest- if you have well water get one that you can remove the coil for cleaning or put in a water filter or go to Phase three for a tank. Do NOT put in an oversized boiler as you will get short cycles and wear out the parts and get less efficiency.I am assuming that you do not have steam heat. Remember that this boiler will only run at full capacity a day or two a year at most. I recommend that you do not go lower than a .65 gph firing rate as problems tend to happen at very low firing rate- even at this I recommend double filtration of the oil with an automotive(Garber) filter as the second filter for any installation with a new oil line- The existing line has probbly had tens of thousands of gallons of oil sitting in it for 7-8000 hours per year and very fine particles have been settling out and coating the line like plaque in your arteries.

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Paul Mitchell

If these are the only options...

I would go Buderus, Riello, Crown mega-stor indirect or equivalent. If you are open to other options I would suggest an Energy Kinetics System 2000 set up. Heat and hot water with an indirect tank heated by a plate heat exchanger. Have one in my home and am very satisfied.

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