Another DIY

Capt.Dan

I have been reading the wall for a month now and find that I no longer even go and visit the ladies of the internet, instead I spend my time here reading and trying to learn.
I am a Radiantec customer and became one probably because of their advertising. I have gone as far as installing the "7/8 tubing in my basement floor pour with 18 inch on centers. I then hired a local plumber for the boiler and hot water hook-up. Now the problem. The plumber doesn't really understand radiant technology and tried to connect everything with zone valves. I wasn't getting any heat to the hot water heater or the floor because,to keep the temperature down in the floor, even with a mixing valve, he had turned the boiler down to 140 deg.. Radiantec did help me out with this by instructing me to pump the radian floor and sent me a hand sketched plumbing diagram to give to the plumber. After some discussion to get him to install the pump I finally got the system running. I am satisfied with the heat that I get inmy basement ( We are making an apartment in our basement while we finish the main part of the log home). I know that things weren't done correctly and am planning on finding another plumber and having things redone before I install the radiant tubing on the main floor. One of the most disappointing things that I discovered here on the Wall is the importance of an oxygen barrier which of course the " 7/8 " tubing doesn't have. I plan on going with a P/S system the second time around. After I get a heat loss calculation of course.
In defense of DIY's. I am a firefighter by trade and one of my moonliting jobs was with an electrician ashelper. I have been left on jobs by myself many times and I can't count how many boxes I have seen buried. Other firefighters that I work with part-time as carpenters and different other trade ( no plumbers). My point is that I have seen what the professionals are doing to million dollar homes and additions and I want better than that for my own .Ifeel that I know when to call in an expert but even that can go bad. My plumber is no beginner, he is in his seventies and has been plumbing for well over50years and yes, he does have his masters. It's just that with radiant heat a lot of the plumbers are needlessy afraid of it for a lack of trainning.
I am getting too long winded but just had to add my 2 cents.
CD

Bud_14

These guys / companies that hang on the wall are the best of the best. Even the new kids on the block that are trying to get a handle on this, that frequent the site are showing their customers and the industry that they’re heading to the top with the best. I’ve been in this trade for 24 years and have helped put in some very nice steam and hot water systems. But as a contractor now, I wouldn’t do it, I don’t understand it enough and the plumber should have been honest with you from the get go. This type of heating is an exact science and when piping is buried in concrete, it’s all you have to work with. I can calculate ductwork and if I happen to be wrong, it isn’t to hard to correct it…
Hope all works out for you in the end.

We’ll I gotta run, some of these guys like to take a tinners head and hold it under water.

An old Chinese Proverb is

“A single conversation across the table with a wise man is worth a month’s study of books.”


That’s why I hang out here as Dan would say “you just get smarter.”

Bud

PJO_5

The Wallies....

will help you. I'm sure will follow me, but maybe I can get you started.

You need to add a heat exchanger and another pump if your boiler is cast iron. You also need to protect it from low return temperatures if it's cast iron.

I also recommend some of Dan's books (to the left). They are written in a straightforward approach, and are reasonably priced...easily a bargain.

I have done all three of these things, and was in a similar (but not as bad) boat as you.

Good Luck, PJO

Capt.Dan

I thank you for your responses, even though I am not a plumber I feel that too many people are not getting what they are paying for when it comes to radiant heat. What got me on the right track was a night course that I signed up for at the local vacal tech. school titled " radiant heating and controls". The best night class that I have ever taken. It is being taught by two employees of a local supply house, one works the counter and the other does the calculations for the store, both guys very knowleable. What does stand out though is that they disagree between themselves on what the correct way to go is which tells me that I had better find out things for myself and try and come up with the best answers.
I have already purchased one of Dan's books and read it and will get others.
Again, thanks for the encouragement. CD

lchmb

Put in a mixing valve

rather than take it to far just create a mixing loop on that one zone..that will allow you to run the boiler at normal temp and won't affect the other zone's..

Mark Eatherton1

The problem with some plumbers...

is that due to the fact that they know how to solder, they believe they can also do hydronic heating. Not true. Especially with the new radiant hydronics. As long as they only have to deal with one temperature (just as yours tried to do) they are OKay. Throw in the need for multiple temperatures, and they can't talk the talk, much less walk the walk.

The fact that you were sold non barrier tubing and not told about it concerns me, but there's really not much I can do other than advise.

At present, you have two options. One has already been addressed, add a heat exchanger to isolate the ferrous components from the non ferrous components. The other is to treat your water with chemicals to keep the pH at around 8.5 This generally requires treatment every one to two years and must be done for the life of the system. If you ignore it, it WILL go away.

As for being a DIY'er, I don't hold that against anyone. I'm probably one of the biggest DIY'ers that ever walked the face of this green Earth. I do a lot of research prior to grabbing tools to make sure that I'm doing it right, and I invoke as much craftsmanship as I can muster during the course of the project.

We'll get your ship righted. It's just going to take some time and money. Can you provide mmore details? Got drawings? Got pictures?

ME

PS, Before the flaming begins, please note that I said SOME plumbers, and I am a licensed master plumber. I've got nothing against plumbers doing it right...

ME

chuck shaw

In all fairness,

just because a man is a master plumber, doesnt mean anything when it comes to heat. Some of the best heating men I know, hold no licensses of any kind. And they must call in outside help to light off any system. The fact that he is 70 may be working against you as well. I dont mean to sound critical, just stating a few facts.

Chuck

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

eleft(retired)_5

foot in mouth

Ok Chuck!

State some facts on us old folk.

Are we ready to be plowed under?

Are you age profiling?

al

Earthfire

Al

He said "may be". Look at your peers and tell me honestly that the "What the hell is this newfangled stuff" attitude isn't present in a large persentage of the age group. They are the same guys that say: Been doin it this way for 40+ years and ain't nutin wrong wif it. Are there some in the age group that are adapting to & adopting new technology? Heck Yeah! Unfortunately there are both attitudes prevelent in all of the age levels in the trades and society. The good thing is the people that come to the Wall are willing to listen and learn. Do we accept everything on blind faith? Heck No! But We do admit that there may be a better more efficient way to do something and we are willing to learn. Luckily this attitude is not limited to Wallies

My Three rules for life: #1. DON'T DO THE CRIME IF YOU CAN'T DO THE TIME #2. THE ONLY STUPID QUESTION IS THE ONE THAT DIDN'T GET ASKED #3. KEEP YOUR EYES & EARS OPEN, YOU'LL LEARN SOMETHING IN SPITE OF YOURSELF.

prm_8

Inject, not Mix

One alternative to the mixing valve is to use an injection pump and controller. This will gain a bit of efficiency and a bunch of comfort by varying the water temp in the radiant floor based on the outside temp. The pump can be a regular Grundfoss or Taco and the controller can be a Tekmar 356 or equiv. This is more expensive than a mixing valve, but safer for your boiler and more comfortable. Spend a bit now, stay comfortable forever.

Actually, Tekmars website has quite a lot of good info, although the layout needs work. Try it, you'll like it.
www.tekmarcontrols.com

Beware of Radiantec, Radiant Floor Co., etc. They are box pushers, not heating technology companies.

DIY rules! Sorry pros, but we don't have many heating design pros up here, just experienced pipe sweaters.

Mike T., Swampeast MO

IMHO the Key to Sorting the Confusion

Is to NEVER forget that you are working with a system!

The system starts FIRST with the structure.

THEN consider the emission method/devices.

Then consider the heat production method and distribution system.

FINALLY consider the method to control.

If you keep budget in mind with each step (and the effect of the current choice on previous choices) what seems a bewildering array of options narrows quite rapidly.

This process though can be extremely complex and explains a couple of phenomenon:

1) The tendency to find a general method that works for you and resist change.

2) Problems with "pre-engineered" systems that essentially require the structure and lifestyle to be altered to work with the system because they aren't "part" of the design.