Apology from DIY

Person

This is a good thought, but still beware!!! My friend had a Munchkin put in 2 years ago- no Prim/Sec. and no diff. pressure bypass valve. It cycles like mad. He is listed on the HTP site as a "certified installer". Time for a refresher course I think.......

John_37

Apology from DIY

Ok, I was the DIYer that started this flame war and I want to apologize. That was not my intention. I just wanted to point out that you should not treat all home owners as morons. Maybe this is going to come as a surprise to everyone here but plumbers have a bad reputation among many home owners as being arrogant and untrustworthy. Just go to some of the more popular home-repair and home-improvement sights on-line and search on the topic. I have had first had experience with bad plumbers and that is why I am now a hard-core DIYer – especially when it comes to plumbing!

As I read through a lot of the threads here I came away with the impression that if you were in the biz you got treated with respect and if not it was, “call a contractor”. Maybe I was wrong. I did not read every thread here. What really struck me was the amount of threads from contractors dealing with poor installations by contractors. So what am I supposed to do? If I don’t think my local contractor is doing the right thing or giving me the right information and I come here and ask questions and am told to call my contractor then why should I or anyone that is not a contractor come here.

I won’t even go in to those that think theirs is the most important or difficult profession in the world. Walk a mile in my shoes.

Maybe I got the wrong impression. If so I’m sorry. I’ll be the first to admit I have a biased impression about your trade. My suggestion is, if you are one of those that has your stock answer to click on the “Find a Pro” link then maybe you should either not respond to those threads that you think require that response or ask questions to try and find out of you can really help.

Thank you,

DIY

LEAD PIPE

I

Have always gotten great help/advice here. I think that sometimes you don't like what you hear but it has always been on the money for me. I have sent many people to this site for help and they found it helpful as well. These guys know there stuff, there is no question about that.

Mark Hunt

Dear DIY

Someone posted earlier that we will give information for some things, while there are other things that we will NOT try to talk you through.

Do you see the "CO again" thread I started? Do you see how many people have died?

There are certain things that you should not attempt without proper training, and Home Depot doesn't offer proper training for combustion appliances.

So if you come here asking how to install a boiler or water heater, you can expect us to advise against it. Why? Because of the potential to kill everyone in the house.

I'll walk a mile in your shoes when you walk a mile in mine. Do you think "plumbers and heating guys" were born with the knowledge they have? Or do you think that what we do is just that damn easy? If that is the case, why would you need us? Why ask us for answers that you deem "easy"?

Only two answers to that question, One: You don't know. Two: You don't know.

I spent $2000.00 last week on classes to make me a better "professional". Every Pro that posts here spends more money on training than you could imagine. Yet you seem to think that we should always pump out free information. How many times has your doctor or lawyer given you free information? The knowledge I have did not come free, so why should I give it away.

Money aside, can you tell me what the proper draft reading should be on an atmospheric gas water heater? Can you tell me what the proper CO, CO2, O2 readings should be on the same unit? Can you tell me what the correct stack temperature should be?

If you can answer yes to any of those questions, can you explain why?

How many GPM can you expect from a Taco 007 pump through a 110'(total equivilent length) circuit of 1" black iron pipe? How many BTU's can I deliver through that circuit with a 20 degree temperature drop?

There are things that "you should not try at home", because they can and will kill you.

I have coached many DIYers through some tough installations. I have a customer right now that wanted to install all of his radiant tubing. No problem. He wants to have OWNERSHIP of his system. That is GREAT! He paid me every time I went to his project. When it came to the boiler, I drew a line. There was NO WAY I was going to let a DIYer install a CO generator! AND EVERY APPLIANCE THAT MAKES HEAT MAKES CO!!!!!!!!!

So the answer is this, you may be the most intelligent person to ever grace the face of the planet, but intelligence has nothing to do with experience and education.

There are things that you should not attempt. For those things, you will be advised to "hire a pro"

Best wishes!

Mark H



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ScottMP

I agree with MARK !!!

Many time here on the wall we will walk somethru a problem or give advice where to go to get more info. Many times we will tel some one "Get a Pro".

This has Nothing to do with arogance or protecting our trade and EVERTHING to do with protecting some ones health and safty. We make a judgement call as to how far we should go with advice. Should we be giving advice one how to diffuse a bomb ? Because thats what a run away boiler is. The preasure and volotilty of a over heating boiler is just that!!

I think the people who give advice to a DIYer to call a pro are " THE REAL PROS ".

By the way, lets not even discuss the ligality of poor advice. " So Mr. Smith, who told you to do this ?? "

Please stick around and we'll all learn together.

Scott

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Dave Yates (PAH)

Our image

has suffered greatly for far too long. Many of us strive to change the perception of plumbers that is fostered by the mass media and, yes, those few who are an embarrassment to the trade. Find me a profession that doesn't have a few rotten apples in its collective barrel.

If you do just a bit more searching on the web, you'll see that modern sanitary plumbing methods have saved more lives over the past 120 years than have all the doctors and medicines combined. Check out the history of cholera, typhoid and dysentery, to name just a few. The world was a very frightening place. Imagine - if you will - how difficult the struggle was for plumbing contractors who forged ahead with new ideas and techniques for protecting the health of the nation. Chlorination of drinking water didn't occur until 1916! Today we fight that battle on new fronts as we recognize threats to human health such as Legionella bacteria or scalding issues. Who's leading the charge? Master Plumbers.

You'll find that SARS, while very frightening, was minimal when compared to what occurred during those wide-spread pandemics. If you dig deeply enough, you'll be surprised to find their origin was centered exactly where SARS started and followed the exact same pathway to our shores. Without modern sanitary plumbing systems, SARS would have been equally as devastating to human populations. There was a documented case of SARS transmission via a backed up sewer in NYC. Think back to those earlier days when raw untreated sewage was simply dumped into our rivers and lakes. Check out Chicago's history and marvel at their willingness to reverse the flow of their river so that their drinking water could still be drawn from a lake. Imagine for a moment that you lived there in 1892. Now imagine that many people died in just a few months in one of our US cities next year.

You've been made to believe there's little, or less, to know for installing plumbing products and that we, as professionals, bring little to the table except big bills. Marketing 101 and it works for getting consumers to open their wallets at the DIY centers.

This afternoon I will be addressing a high school group about my career in the trades. I'll be opening their eyes and exploring their perception of plumbers as we discuss the many changes occurring within the PHVAC fields. By day's end, I hope to have inspired them a bit and altered their perception of plumbers.





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jim lockard

well said

Mark and Dave. Home depot or some other big box store, annouce a seminar bring out a couple of well spoken cheer leaders to show you the in's and out's of gas fired appliances. Then we read in the paper or on one of Mark Hunt's posts that there has been a terrible accident. But hey we saved a few bucks and H.D. made a sale and the cheerleaders got to tell a few heater, plumber jokes.
J.Lockard

ed wallace

diyer

im just a lowly oil burner tech but am proud to call the guys on this board my friends they have saved my butt more than once and they are correct co producing systems are not an item a diyer should be installing

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hr

Keep in mind

the techs, and installers provide a ton of good and friendly, for the most part, tips and info here for FREE!

It's not unusual to spend an hour or more on various list learning and sharing years of practical experience.

Nice to get a thanks from the players, on ocassion

I think we all type things we wish we hadn't from time to time. In the heat of the action We learn and move forward. It's nice to have a forum that allows for that (within reason)

I can't imagine anyone that has spent time here has not recovered the cost of admission. The hit counter on this site indicates it works!

hot rod

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DIY Homeowner

Education

Both the DIY'ers and the pros here have valid points. The challenge here is to figure out where the middle ground is. Some of the folks on this board are very good at trying to do just that. Others find it easier to ignore us or just type "find a pro".

One of the strengths of this particular on-line community, is that it is frequented by folks who are trying very hard to improve what they know and understand, whether they are DIYers or pros. Many pros who come here exchange info based on specific situations they encounter. Many DIYers come here to learn more about a job they might be about to undertake, whether that job is contracted out to a pro, or undertaken by themselves. The bottom line here is that we ALL are seeking to improve the work we do individually and the industry as a whole.

This is a great place to keep the "bad apples" in check. The more a homeowner knows about an upcoming boiler replacement project, the better they are positioned to ensure that they don't get taken by a pro with either an excessively expensive install or a plain bad install, of which there are many based on the quantity of post here. Knowledge and education are necessary for a free market to perform at the highest level. Only then will the bad apples be weeded out of the barrel.

The challenge to both pros and DIYers is to keep the discussion of this issue going (hopefully without it flaming out of control). DIYers need to recognize that some things, like a boiler install, should only be done by a pro. Pros need to recognize that many DIYers here aren't primarily motivated by trying to save a buck. I would suggest that MOST DIYers that come here don't have saveing a nickle as their primary motivation to run this gauntlet - they seek information in order to educate themselves and ensure that their finished product is done in the best possible manner, with the best possible materials and workmanship. It is through open exchanges like this one where DIYers like myself figure out what is hype and what is real (i.e., the radiantech threads here and on RPA).

All I, and many DIYers ask, is that pros and DIYers alike try to tone down the discussion in an effort to try to keep from pissing off each other. The DIYer's challenge is to convince the pros that we know enough to do certian things. The pros challenge is to convince the DIYers that there are some things that should not be done.

Let's try to work together. We need each other. In the end, we will all get better heating systems and a better industry if we can keep it civil and work together.

PJO_5

My $0.02

I agree with HR in that there is no way anyone leaves this site without benefit...even Robert Starr :-)

I, for one, have benefitted tremendously. I'm an H.O. but they put up with me...

Mr. Hunt; I truly respect your knowledge and passion, but is it true that "Every appliance that makes heat makes CO"? I was under the impression it had to be fired by a fuel source that was carbon-based. For example; solar panels, electric stovetops and HWH's, etc. Do these make CO? I am respectfully asking and am curious.

Mr. Yates; as a twenty year member of water and wastewater treatment operations, I'd like to think we had a part in the prevention of waterborne diseases as well :-)
Our saying in the industry was "the plumbers get it to the plant, and we take it from there."

Again, I'm just trying to clarify and am acting with only respect.

This site is great for many reasons, but far and away the best reason (besides Dan creating it) is that very knowledgeable professionals are willing to share SOME of what they know as a courtesy to help each other and anyone else that is "watching." I would not expect anyone to spend hours getting their brain picked for free, but the collective intelligence is amazing (I sound like I'm in "The Next Generation" talking about the Borg).

I will never leave my boiler testing and maintenance to anyone but a professional, but I do nearly everything else in my home...okay, I suck at tape and spackle but I clean my bathrooms! :-)

Sometimes it gets a little heated, but that's human nature.
Dan knows when to step in as needed, and I too have regretted some stuff I posted...also human nature. I wouldn't want it any other way.

Take Care, PJO

Person

I think......

I don't know if it was on this post or not, but there was a comment made that a portion of the pro's work is repairing another contractors (pro's) work... I think those are the peole who need to spend more time on this site or on training to educate themselves. I'm sure it doesn't feel good to be a homeowner who spends X amount of money and find out his install was all wrong. How do you know the next "pro" that you call to come fix it is really a "pro"??? That's why it is good for a homeowner to be very well educated in whatever project he is contracting out.

Unknown

My 2 cents

A great many homeowners that this happens to are quite able, on the next try, to refine the search and weed out the contractors that aren't appropriate. They are very successful at doing the background checks that it takes to get the system in working order.

It is entirely the customer's choice whether to check references, or to hire the guy that works in an unsatisfactory manner.

Owning a building carries with it more responsability than renting, but I constantly hear questions about who is going to pay for the mistakes. It will be one of the two parties that agreed to the work. One way or another.

PLEASE, PLEASE, check the contractor out before you select one. Get the one that you would go to if you had a system that was installed wrong. Get him the first time. He's out there, ready for your call. He is there, because he knows what it costs HIM to be in business. He'll be there after the sale, as well. Tell him why you selected him.

You'll be cared for like his mother would be. I've been there.

Noel

Gordy

Some food for thought for the DIY"s. Maybe the Pros can help on this one.As a Union carpenter we are running into more and more products that require a "certified installer certificate". If the product was not installed by a certified installer the warranty is void even if the install was done correctly and the product failed. We can go to our training center and recieve a certificate after taking the installation class.While these products may seem simplistic,door closers,door locks ect. I wonder how the Radiant heating world of warranties on boilers,controls,piping ect. fair on the installation issues done by the DIY or even a professional that may not have proper certs. for a given product. Something the DIY needs to think about when the product fails if they can recoupe the warranty on the product.

Gordy

In defense to the installers. This radiant heating business is quite a different animal verses the hot air business from what I have read and learned.There are numerous ways to skin the cat so to speak.For instance the heat emitters, the choices are numerous radiant floor, inslab, sleeper system, underfloor, wall,ceiling,baseboard,radiator,coil.Then there is the boiler,castiron,condensing,non condensing,hotwater heater,solar,eletric,oil.Then there is control strategies from the boiler to the heat emitters that are numerous P/S pumping,outdoor reset,Do I use zone valves or pumps to control a zone how many zones will give the greatest comfort and efficiency.It takes great talent to put all these choices together to make a great system. Is there one set way NO.Every installer has his/her own way that they are comfortable with or had greatest success with. I would love to beable to afford to bring these great minds to my home and have a wet stock right here and analyse my 50's technology system. It would be interesting to hear the discussion and opinions on what it would take to make a great system even better by todays standards, and I'm sure there would be widley varied opinions that would soon find a common ground.Part of the installers issue is to put together a system that is low maintinance,efficient and needs no homeowner intervention and will last decades which is the beauty of a radiant system longevity.For these reasons I'm sure the wall was created. So these Profesionals can have a place to share ideas opinions and help one another.

John_37

Google

Sorry

Fred Robinson

mech systems

Radiant ,steam,hot water,hot air,cool air and I even hate to mention heatpumps. It has been my experience since 1958
that the performance of these (mechanical) systems is impossible to predict,even when qualified experienced people design and install them. Generally from the time the system is turned on, the modifications and adjustments begin. Speed the fan up,change the motor,add water,drain water, more expansion area,vent the system,shift the suction to the other line,it goes on and on. Air balance is even worse.It is taught as a science and you have to practice like an art.
Compared to electrical sysytems when layed out and installed according to code by qualified people. Generally the wires are oversized when the system is new and later are overloaded. electic systems more often than not will perform as expected.
It is no wonder a DIY can be unhappy with their mech system.
Just my 2cents

eleft(retired)_5

Mr. Kaske

With all do respect, nothing on this public medium is exclusive.

Fred Robinson

mech systems

P.S. I love this site. Reading about the problems and issues posted help me to learn and grow.

Boiler Guy

$ .02CDN

I have no quarel with those who want to be DIY's. As far as I am concerned they can buy the products they want from whomever they desire. BUT ... What I take issue with is when the DIY person ties up my wholesaler's counter person obtaining "free information" on how to install/use a product while I wait for service. If you want it you had better be able to install/use it or at least understand the instructions enclosed. Advice can be free .... training should come with a cost. I know it does for me!

John_37

That would irritate me as well

That would bug the crap out of me as well even if I wasn't a pro (i'm not) and I was at a retail place. Anyone who is asking a "guy behind the counter" any how to install a mechanical device is probably in trouble already. Every one has been stuck behind someone who doesn't know what the hell they are doing. Time is money. It doesn't matter if your a pro or not.

Jim

Ray Landry

'What really struck me was the amount of threads from contractors dealing with poor installations by contractors. So what am I supposed to do? If I don’t think my local contractor is doing the right thing or giving me the right information and I come here and ask questions and am told to call my contractor then why should I or anyone that is not a contractor come here.'


We're here to help you decide if a contracter is going to your install corectly. So that would pretty much answer your question about being able to find the right installer. I'm sure there is at least ONE reputable professional within a reasonable distance from ANYONE in this country. Of course we're going to shy you away from doing anything of difficulty, like a boiler install for example (seeing as how this debate got started) you, as an unliscenced, non-professional should NOT be installing new heating equipment. If you are, or are planning on it, shame on you. You seem to think that all of this stuff is so easy... how may boilers have you installed in your life? You say you've done plumbing? changing a flapper in a toilet doesnt count.

It's just like Mark said, if you know all the answers already, than why ask us anyways? Heck you dno't even need this site!!
I'd love to apoligize to my anger in past posts, but you're still coming at us with your lame remarks... Walk a mile in your shoes? Any day pal...

Floyd_5

When that happens to me....

I take a note pad from the counter and the joint becomes mine....I help myself to what I need, write down the numbers and quanities.....hand it to the counter man and split.
I have that understanding with them.....of course than again I am their best customer....whatatheygonnasay......

Mark Hunt

CO


Electric ovens in self cleaning mode can produce enough CO to kill an army.

That is a fact sir, and unless you know to test for it you would never know.

Now you know.

Mark H

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Mark Hunt

Where have you been Ray?


You said it exactly.

If it is so easy, why ask the "dumb plumbers"?

I would also caution DIYers. Go look at the "CO again" thread.

I really don't want to post your story there.

Mark H

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Mark Eatherton1

Welcome..

to The Wall. I like your words of wisdom. Stick around!

ME

Mark Eatherton1

Man...

is that ever the truth. Thanks for saying it again Mark.

ME

PJO_5

Thanks, Mark

While I don't have a cleaning mode in my own oven, should I think it's because it's at a very high temperature and burning off all the "food stuff" left in the oven...that's carbon-based?

Is there any time when they can produce CO in "normal" cooking mode? Now I am thinking "yes".

If so, I am getting another detector...I currently don't have one in the kitchen.

Never a visit goes by here at The Wall where I don't learn...

Thanks. PJO

Tom Giedraitis

One of the supply houses I've used for supplies has a big sign on the wall specifically stating that they serve Trade Contractors First.
Never been a problem for me.

Murph'_5

Keep an open mind...........

There is more than one way to skin a cat. First rule is to keep the knife facing away from you AT ALL TIMES !! If you get cut or lose a finger the task will become harder, hence caution safety first. Then still need to be able to finish the task at hand.


Just because Bob or Jim comes into your home via the computer and says we install system "XX" and They feel it is the cats meow, do not be fooled into believing that this is the only system that works out there. drive around and see all the homes being heated out there every single day not using the "XX" system and using the "OO" system installed by competent contractors like Bill or Jim.


Not to pick on any certain group here, what I am trying to emphasize is do we really need the "XX" brand even if it means it is out of our reach and we MUST install it "ourselves" even if we are not quite sure of how safe it will be. Health & Safety First ,Cost Vs. Efficiency Second (that includes research)


I will agree that we get some of the best folks here across the country ,both in contractors trying make a difference and endusers trying to get better informed. Keep the knives sharpened ,and be mindful of the fingers!!



Murph' (SOS)

Ray Landry

Mark, I was still around! I was quoting your words about asking us dumb plumbers for advice...

marc

how about this

this happens quite frequently. homeowner knows a friend of a friend who works at wholesaler. so he buys all the components, installs and guess what???? system wont work, so who is at fault. who warranties, who is gonna repair. i probably talk to 6 or more people a month that are doing there own system and need a little advice. does the wholesaler accept any liability if system wont work, the homeowner is pissed off because he was told it was easy , just put some pipe in the floor and use hwt. i could go on and on .anyone else see this . also i thought wholesalers were only to sell to licensed contractors. thanks marc