Commodity products

John R. Hall

...a wise man recently said that the products we sell and install will soon become commodities thanks to the Bog Box, and all we will have to sell is our service. Prophetic or pathetic?

steve gates

both!

Floyd_5

It depends......

I see the face of heating changing more than you can imagine in the next ten years..... eff. that we have thought impossible will be possible, not only that but co-gen will become much more common as the prices of the natural fuels make cogen and high eff. equipment much more viable.
The "technology of heating" will become something that the few that chose to learn it, will have a secure job in. It will take a lot of time and effort to keep up with the changes, but it will be worth it to the few that choose to accept the challenges.

The few, the proud, the heating guy......

Floyd

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Gloom & Doom

Since mass merchandising is about just that--selling things in MASS--there wouldn't seem to be much force for this to happen in the way of hydronics in most markets. The forced air industry had better watch out.

If it does happen with hydronics be very wary. The big boxes will do everything in their power to try to force you to work indirectly for them at a price they set and taking a cut of the profit that would normally be yours. Of course you won't be a "real" employee however and you'll still be responsible for all of your own taxes and social security and they will also absolve themselves from liability for anything beyond the components themselves.

Mass merchants have managed to completely convince people that they are efficient because the "cut out the middle men". Problem is, they're more than willing to ACT as a middle-man if the opportunity presents itself.

John R. Hall

What brand

It has gotten to the point that a DIYer is looking at price, not brand to choose their equipment. After all, why do they do it themselves anyway? Is it really because they like to do handyman work? In some cases, yes. But in most cases, they do it themselves because it saves $$$. With only four or five major manufacturers making all HVAC equipment and putting different labels on each, there isn't much difference in equipment. Maybe the marketing genius who puts "Cheapest" on the label will sell the most "commodity" products.

John@Reliable_9

John, I think that people..............

Don't care what name is on the unit. Most if not all of the boilers that I have installed were chosen by me. Afew customers will check the web, but most again don't know about heat and "trust" the local heating pro. My market area is in New England and mostly oil replacement systems in the 4000 to 5000 range.

Paul Rohrs_2

Some time back....

Dan had posted an article stating that because of these types of stores, contractors days were numbered. The article was a sales ad for steam heating "Plants" that you could "save big money" on.

Turns out the article was written in the early 1900's addressing the marketing of Sears and the like. I wish I had saved that article.

That would be great fodder for "The Library".

Thanks Dan for all you do.

Regards,

PR

Found it. You have to enlarge it to read it, but it is fascinating stuff. Hello OSHA, are you watching.

http://forums.invision.net/Thread.cfm?CFApp=2&&Message_ID=77287&_#Message77287

Earthfire

link

says its unavailable to me.

John R. Hall

One more time

I wanted to bring this thread back for one more blast. I'm writing a full-page column on this subject for the 3/29 issue and any more feedback from Wallies would be appreciated (you will be quoted, too).

Floyd_5

John.

whether we like it or not brand recognition defintly has a place in the mind of the consumer.
Customers love it when they hear you tell them that the furnace or the boiler that you are installing is a name that they have heard before... it makes them more "comfortable".
Sure there are those ustomers that will "trust" you and your judgement, but the majority, still want something that they recognize.
Why do you think the big boxes as so adamant about getting one of the "major" brand companies to market in their stories????
Sure the big box stores name gets the people in the door, but if they then see a boiler or furnace there, that the name rings a bell with them then they will say to themselves..."Hey this is the same boiler that Joe Blow installs and I can get it and do it my self". Plus the old geezer that is there to help them tells them how easy it is and that he's done it for 40 years and nothing has changed...it's a walk in the park!!!!

Yeah right....

Floyd

Tom Meyer

I was thinking

I was at a trade show some time ago and saw a booth with HVAC books, tapes etc. Always on the hunt for new information, I went up and asked if they had anything on hydronics. I was told "ABSOLUTELY! We have everything you want to know about it." I was handed a VHS tape which was 43 minutes long.

I thought "15 years in the business. All the schools, conferences, workshops, networking, etc, I've done can be condensed down to a 43 minute tape?" Have I wasted all that time? I don't think so.

I teach 8 hour classes on radiant heat for the RPA and we are pressed to get through all the information. Should I just throw in the 43 minute tape and let the people watch that instead of the 8 hour class? I think you see my point.

The Big Boxes, internet, whoever sells directly to the DIYer can only sell the materials. They cannot possibly give them an instruction book covering all the engineering and design principles we learn as we go along. "Real men don't need instructions." Can you imagine if they tried to include an instruction book? It would be several hundred pages long in fine print. Most would go unread just as the two page instructions for setting a VCR clock.

What's wrong with people doing it themselves? The potential effects of not being trained and experienced send a chill down my back. Improper venting - carbon monoxide or inefficient combustion. Improper pipe sizing, layout, etc. - Cold spots or it won't work at all. Imagine what would happen if people didn't understand heat loss, surface temperature, mixing valves, injection stations, delta T, point of no pressure change, boiler protection, heat exchangers, threats of Legionella, pressure reducing valves, pressure/expansion tanks, constant circulation, etc, etc.

Our future may go from design and install to correcting errors.

When I think about DIYers, I think about a shade tree mechanic. Can we change our own oil? Most of us can. All we have to know is which weight of oil to put in. Where the drain plug is. And getting the right filter, etc. Spark plugs. Well, that's a bit more complex. You have to understand gapping. What about a carburetor? Could I put one in? Yup. Can I adjust it enough to at least get the engine to run? Possibly. Can I set it to run the most efficiently? Probably not. But that's just me. I'm sure there are a few people out there who can.

My point is simple: unless you understand the complexities of the system, you MAY get it to run. Is it going to be the best system working the way you want it to at the cheapest operating cost with the longest life expectancy? You have to decide. Is it time to admit you need a professional? Many people make that decision about their cars. That's why there are oil change shops and mechanics.

One other story may bring the point to focus: A young man crashed a small private plane at a local airport. When they pulled him out, they found he had stolen the plane and wasn't a licensed pilot. When asked what made him think he could fly the plane, he answered: "I read a book about it."

Tom Meyer
Senior Designer/Trainer
Precision Hydronics Corp
www.precisionhydronics.com

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Kal Row

my local home DEsPOT sells boilers

it't one of most money making stores of all of them - and in 4 years, has sold only a few boilers, and got stuck with half of them for incorrect size ordering by the Home Owner - so i dont think we have to worry about it - they have tried to sell forced air system too with even worse results

fo-geeet-ah-bow-eeet

prm

DIY

I'm a DIYer, but probably not a typical one. After buying several books, some from here, others from RPA, I think I'm getting a pretty good handle on things. Your point is well taken though, I've read well over 1000 pages of various books and manuals. The heat loss calc is done, by hand and by software (the results are within 5% of each other) and the pipe and circulator sizing are done with the method described by John Seigenthaller (sp?).

Now, that said, I'm hiring a pro to install the gas piping and get the boiler running and tuned (Munchkin T80M w/Vision 1, my choice).

Anything else I need to be worried about?

Ken_8

Worried about?

Just the "pro" you select to make it happen.

Unfortunately, that will be the worry of them all.

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heatboy

Commodity? Never.

I agree that the industry will go through some changes over the next decade. I just don't think those of us that don't perceive ourselves as a commodity will become one. We will have to adapt to change, but we have been doing that all along. That's why we are still here.

The only thing I see happening because of the retailing of hydronics is my service revenues sky rocketing over the next decade if retailing does happen. I will still get the work I do now. People that hire us can certainly afford to purchase the equipment themselves with a little legwork. The people that hire us SEE THE VALUE in doing so. This type of client will never disappear. They will become more knowledgable, which is the best thing that could happen to us. Knowledgeable clients make selling them on the ideas I have a lot easier.

Commodity? Never.

hb

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