DIYer's/Homeowners

Boiler Guy

Ray Landry

I am writing this in response to a recent thread on this forum. I believe that this website is a great learning tool. It is for people who have the desire to learn more about Plumbing/hvac systems (well more heating than anything else, but you get my drift.)
We, as professionals will give out advise all day long to people (tradesmen or not) But we will not, advise people to do things that may have an end result of serious destruction. A DIYer recently stated that we, as professionals shoud 'get off our high horses' We are NOT trying to put ourselves above anyone else here, we give advice when we see fit. We won't tell you how to fit and wire your new boiler, because you need a certain knowladge before you begin to tackle projects as big as that. We will however, tell you how to change your thermostat. And, we will give you things to look for in a professional (check if they are using the right materials, piping practices, ect.)

In short, our response to 'I think of myself as a handyman and want to put in a boiler' will always be 'do it right and call a pro' Not because we are pompus, but because we are trying to promote saftey!


Now can we please stop this trade bashing and get along?!

Floyd_5

Thank you!!!

Very well stated..

Don Robertson

amen

I work for a plumbing/heating wholesaler and we get calls from homeowners, DIY's all the time. Our policy is not to sell equipment to an unliscenced individual or company for a couple reasons. One is to protect our customers in the trade and the other is for obvious safety concerns. You wouldn't believe how hostile people get when you refuse to sell them. The problem is you get to know people in the community and don't mind helping someone if they just need a fernco or a couple of PVC 90's but when that same person comes back and wants to buy a boiler or even a water heater they get very discouraged when I tell them our policy. I am so sick of hearing things like "home depot will sell it to me" and I can't seem to figure out why they just don't go buy it from them. I also hear a lot of "I keep calling plumbers and no one calls me back" Obviously, they are not calling the right plumbing or heating tech. I guess my point is I think we are better off just not selling any retail whatsoever. The sign on our door already says: "no retail sales. liscenced plumbing and heating professionals only." but it is completely ignored and sometimes its just easier to sell someone something than to get into an argument. Any advice from a contractor or homeowner perspective is appreciated.

gehring

As a DIYer I run into this problem all of the time. I ended up having to buy my new steam boiler out of state because my local supplier wouldn't sell me one. I even offered to sign a release, but they refused. Instead of "protecting the trade" they just ended up loosing a customer because now I buy all of my other parts and supplies at the other supply house. The "protect the trade" arguement is weak because a true DIYer will not be detered by one outfit refusing to sell to him. He'll just go down the street (or out of state) so you aren't really protecting anything - you're just loosing business. I think the better policy is to sell to whoever walks in the door but give a discount to the tradespeople and no discount to the DIYer. I'll gladly pay full retail price for the convenience of not having to be hassled for wanting to buy something. I don't deserve a discount because I am not in the trade, so I don't even ask for one. But don't assume I'm an idiot or am going to screw up some project just because I don't do it for a living. Someone who has no clue is not even going to want to attempt to install a HWH or boiler. They would be too intimidated by it. But if a DIYer is inquiring about one, then did you ever consider they just might have enough mechanical apptitude to do it correctly and do it well? Yours is not the only trade where I have this problem as I am a DIYer in electricity, structural carpentry, fiberglass repair, roofing and diesel mechanics as well. I got the same skeptical looks recently when I went into my local electrical supply house to buy a some ground rods and a meter socket.

Unknown

I like your thinking, to a point

My question is this. You want a wholesaler to cut out HIS customer, the retail sales outlet, and sell direct to you. You don't really mind making everyone else there that DOES sell retail stand in line behind you and wait and watch the wholesaler steal their customers.

The wholesaler will lose a lot more customers than yourself. Ones that spend thousands EVERY SINGLE MONTH.

Why wouldn't you buy from someone that sells retail? I liken it to Associated Grocers not wanting you at the warehouse buying toilet paper and standing between the trailer trucks that they need to get out today.

Buy your toilet paper at a RETAIL grocer, not a WHOLESALE grocer. Stand in line with RETAIL customers. Don't hold up the line at a wholesaler, taking the business away from the companies in line behind you. Buy from a company that is in the retail business, or open an account so that you can get in and out fast. Time is money.

I offer this for you to see things from the retail perspective.

Noel

John_37

I work for a manufacturer

I work for a manufacturer that normally only sells to retail outlets and large distributers. We do get people on a regular basis that walk through the door and want to purchase products. We sell to who ever walks in. What do we care. Money is money. It is not like we have a line out the door and it is a constant string of people. Some are store owners who have run short on an item and can't wait to order form a distributer and get delivery. Others are just your average Joe that are looking for a pariticlar product that maybe that can't get locally. It's not that big of a deal. We also get people who call us and want a product shipped. If they don't have an account we give then a price with shipping and then send in a money order. UPS comes by every day. One more box is not that big of a deal. We're flattered that someone likes our product enough that they are willing to go an extra step to get it.

Greg

DIY Homeowner

DIYers

I posted in respose to a very similar issue in the other thread (Apology from DIY). I encourage folks who are interested in this DIYer's perspective to check it out.

I respect anyone who has achieved a high level proficiency in their chosen field. But remember our roots: our country was started by folks who were DIYers, and the desire to DIY runs deep through many Americans to this day. It is part of our culture, for better or worse. In days gone by, you asked questions and advice from the members of your community if you had a problem that you couldn't figure out how to solve, or were about to undertake something for the first time, and sought advice from those who had already been there. Today, communities are different. This board and all those who post here is one such community.

I wouldn't try to install a boiler, and I won't touch gas piping. But rocket scientists need heating equipment, too, and if they can run heat loss calcs, sweat pipes, size circulators, wire a thermostat and relay, and put in better controls, then in the spirit of the DIY culture of America, I would hope that at least some of the pros here who could do this all in their sleep, would provide friendly answers to questions from DIYers when they arise. Those of us who are responsible DIYers aren't asking the pros how to do a combustion test on an atmospheric oil-fired boiler.

Not all DIYers are nickle hounds or tighwads. Many of are just striving for the satisfaction of self sufficiency, to the extent that self-sufficency is possible in our complexly intertwined society.

Thank you to Dan and those pros who support the "pioneer" DIY'er.

Don Robertson

DIY

I would agree that some Diy's have the aptitude for a lot of projects in the Plumbing and Heating genre. I also respect the fact that you are willing to pay a higher price than a professional. Unfortunately, probably 1 in 1000 DIY's would be capable of installing a boiler on their own.(maybe less) You might be one of them.(Even if you are, I suggest you pay a pro to inspect the job and set up the burner before you fire.)
I would say that you are dead wrong about people not wanting to tackle a project when they don't know what they are doing. I see it every day. I could make them sign some sort of release but when their family gets sick from CO poisening or worse, a waiver wouldn't clear my conscience. Thanks for your input but I think you convinced me to persuade the powers that be here to enforce the trade only policy. You are right, there will always be places DIY's can buy these things. My customers who do a lot of business with me will probably appreciate this policy. I know some wholesalers have opened retail sections with a limited array of inventory for Homeowners at a higher mark up. Usually these would have a seperate entrance and a self service checkout. Most homeowners come to our supply house for advice. It's hard to take time to help someone when you have to service trade professionals that your business relies upon. Thanks again for your input.

gehring

I agree with your retail arguement Noel, it is just that many "retail" places just don't sell the type of parts I need. If I am only looking for some copper fittings and flux I can get that at ACE Hardware, but ACE doesn't carry 3 inch black iron fittings or vaporstats. The people at my local retail store have never heard of Gorton Valves before and wouldn't even know how to order you one. That is why I sometimes need to go to the same outlets you go to. I'll go to a different window, I'll even pay more, but I don't want to be denied the ability to buy a part I need.

Dave DeFord

Some of us are forced to DIY..

I have what is apparently the only steam heated house in my county, or so it seems. I have looked on Find a Pro on this site - the closest one is 100 miles away and then only does hot water, not steam. I then called the local "steam expert" and he didn't know what a hartford loop was. I also called the local distributor for my boiler (after being told by the manufacturer to get someone that handles steam) and was told "Just about anyone can handle steam." I think we all know that's not true. So what a guy to do? I bought the Lost Art and did some math. I need to and will fix a leak in my return piping when spring comes and I will install a hartford loop. Will it be as quick and pretty as a pro would do - probably not. Will it be made out of the correct materials and within the proper distance of the normal water line - you betcha! The point is that for certain folks DIY is a necessity more than anything else. What I would like to know is how many people in the trade fix their own cars/trucks, do their own taxes (or take them to H&R Block - the Radiantec of the tax prep industry), hang their own doors, build their own houses etc. DIY'er are not bad people. They may be in position to do the work themselves and save some money, maybe they like to do the work for whatever reason, or maybe they have had really bad experiences with tradespeople and don't trust them anymore (I'm like this with car mechanics). The point is that if you don't want to respond to them don't, but out of common courtesy it would be nice not to belittle them. I for one enjoy this site and have learned quite a bit from it, however I don't think it's right when someone comes here with a legitimate question and then gets flamed. I ask questions here because I trust the answers that I get. I have also provided answers that are in my area of expertise when the opportunity presents itself. Like many other things in life you need to give if you expect to get. Just my $.02.

gehring

Your analogy to auto mechanics is a good one. There are certified, professional mechanics out there and then there are DIYer's.(and alot of the DIYer's are teenagers!). And there is plenty of potential to screw something up with dire consequences (like doing a brake job incorrectly). But anyone (even a minor) can walk into any Ford or GM dealership parts department and buy brake rotors, pads, etc., in fact ANY part. Imagine if you couldn't buy a transmission or whatever someone else deemed to be too complicated unless you were a certified mechanic. That is an absurd concept, but it is what happens at plumbing supply houses. By the way, I'm a middle-aged lawyer now, but I still do my own brake jobs. (Not to save money - just because I can and I enjoy it).

Unknown

I was thinking the same thing

a few weekends ago when I changed all the brake pads on my van . Auto Barn is right up the road , no questions asked about my qualifications to change the pads , not even the rotors if I needed them . I checked and double checked to make sure the lug nuts were tightened when I was done , and just to be sure , checked the next day . Makes me wonder if theres anyone more forgetful than me out there changing brakes .

Oh yeah there is - my buddy Kenny changed his brake pads in front of my house when we were teenagers . An easy task for a kid in auto mechanics school you would think . Well , he forgot to put the pins back in that hold the brakes . He made it down the road a bit till it was time to stop - needed the help of someones curb , but he stopped .

Brian_19

dyi

Very well said guys. From my point of view as a contractor I have no problem with DIY. I too am a DIY in trades other than my own. I would not want my local auto supply to deny me sales of parts. I see just as many sloppy and unsafe jobs from so called professionals as DIY. Most DIY do not do it to save big bucks. They do it for the feeling of accomplishing it themselves.

alternety

Elements of DIY

There are some good points being made here. An element of DIY is that you know what was done and can better deal with repercussions even if you did not understand when you did it.

There are relatively few environments where access to equipment and components is so severely by the "trade structure" than in plumbing and heating. Nuclear weapons and bioweapons come to mind, but it is not clear that these things are actually harder to obtain than repair parts for a boiler.

As a country we are sort of into, and have a history of, not being told what to do by other people; even for "our own protection". The government and lawyers are losing sight of this, but that does not invalidate the idea.

The "don't sell it to civilains" approach is not to the benefit of the civilians; only the vested interests. If Walmart decided to do HVAC we would see a different world. The existing "big box" stores offer only a small subset of the technology so they really do not seriously impact the issue.

Although this will probably revitalize the computer whiz appellation from other posts, a comparable situation is allowing everyone to buy computers and computer parts. The "non-trade" owners of computers are responsible for the propagation of most of the internet viruses by doing really stupid (to the trade geek) things. Fortunately, or unfortunately, these buyers are not denied parts or equipment because they are not licensed or trained computer users. Granted, few people die of computer virus infections; but personal choice has generally been a respected concept by Americans. If you want to buy a outrageously powerful car and drive like an idiot, you get to die and it is OK. Anyone can still buy, or build, the car. Killing others is frowned upon but sometimes even that is not severely punished.

Why is it reasonable to deny people access to heating hardware and plumbing parts? Especially repair parts.

Glen

DIY

Diy is a long standing tradition and should be honoured and respected. The basic premise is that a persons home is his/her castle. In our jurisdiction a DIYer can do their own plumbing/gas/electrical. Permits must still be purchsed - inspections made - but this is a very limited application for new construction only. The advice given on the Wall - is freely given and most often when it is suggested that someone "call a pro" it is in the interest of safety. My local supplier will sell repair parts but not gas appliances or gas valves etc unless the DIY can provide proof of permit etc. This is a huge liability issue. As an example - if I sold Mr Smith a gas valve or oil pump regardless of instructions given and Mr Smith subsequently caused great damage to his home and/or to his family - the liability would still be mine. The advice to call a pro is sage and appropriate. It is not sufficient to merely replace a part that is faulty - why it failed is an important piece to this discussion. A skilled tech can prevent reoccurances and recognize other areas that need attention. Yes homeowners can do that too - but as tradespeople we are vitally interested in your safety - that's what we are trained to do, it also how we support our families - if that is percieved as trade protectionism - then I am guilty as charged.

Mark Hunt

You're right


I'm cancelling my health insurance tomorrow.

Mark H

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

DIY Homeowner

Mark....

....you know the point I'm making.

I wouldn't try surgery on my son, but I, and many, many parents are capable of diagnosing a cut or skinned knee, and rendering the correct decision as to whether a band-aid and a hug will do for that cut, or if I need to get him to a doctor for stitches.

We both understand the issues. You can choose to make light of them and further the discord, or to work for unity. Respect is a two-way street.

Mark_25

No kidding. My nearest oil service tech is 100 miles away. There's no-one in the nearest three counties to come service my boiler. So I HAD to learn to do it myself. Draft over fire, CO, CO2%, the whole enchilada. Not everyone can do this, but those who can should be encouraged...not lambasted.

Unknown

As far as I can see,

Nobody is denying you the right to DIY, or to buy parts. What people ARE trying to do is steer you to a retail outlet.

You can't pull up to a refinery for a gerry can of #2 when you run out of oil, and you certainly wouldn't go to the oil well. You go to a retail outlet

Those guys in the wholesale supply house line with you sell retail. They will also service your burner or provide parts in the middle of the night. They earn the right to shop there by opening accounts that get invoiced and paid once a month. This saves time in line for EVERYBODY. They get pricing based on volume. They don't ask an untrained counterman for technical advise. They have the model # and serial # and part number in hand. Somebody is paying for this time.

I don't understand alienating these guys. If you are willing to pay retail, order your special parts from a retailer. It's a pretty simple concept to behold.

Noel

Patchogue Phil_21

2 sides or more

Noel

What do you consider a "retail outlet" for plumbing and heating supplies? Around here (Long Island) we have the big box places (retail w/limited assortments) and we have supply houses.

No one tries to pull up to a refinery with a gerry-can for #2 oil. That's a weak analogy that you tried to make. Likewise no one drives to Bell & Gossett manufacturing plant to "get a deal" on a circulator.

There are often 2 sides or more to the "story". DIY'ers cannot all be lumped into one pile. Same way, all contractors cannot all be lumped into one category. Some "PROs" don't know much.

The DIY'ers who hold up the line at the supply house asking questions might not even visit this site. And those that do visit here probably won't come forward and say "That was me". That's one side. If you're just venting some frustration about standing in line long times that's OK. Vent away. I hate long lines at the supper market.

Another side is, many DIY'ers ARE knowledgeable and do know what they are doing for the non-dangerous stuff. The parts for said non-dangerous stuff are not always available EXCEPT at a supply house. Maybe I am wrong but it sounds like you would want me to go buy a micro-bubble air separator from ACME Oil and Boiler Repairs rather than go into a supply house and ask for it and pay right then and there. Am I "allowed" to stand in line in front of you for that?

I installed my own boiler. I had to. My oil company (which I had a service contract) told me that I had to wait at least 2 weeks for a covered replacement when my boiler
died. It was 0* to 5* that February week. They were too busy. "Oh we will honor the contract but in at least 2 weeks". Somewhere in 36 hours time span, the burner had stopped and the house froze and the boiler cracked. The company had been there the prior week to "service" a no heat call. Other companies I called were also too busy.

I went to a supply house said I have a xxxBTU boiler and need a replacement - whatcha got?

They described what they had. Showed me the specs for 3 different models. They took my money and sold me a boiler. Did I alienate anyone by doing this? I don't know, I was pretty alienated by "my" oil and service company to notice.

Should I have called you up at ACME Oil and Repairs and asked you to sell retail to me? Not gonna happen.

I can understand you being perturbed when waiting in line and someone is asking questions. It takes longer for you to get to your next job. The supply house doesn't *have* to talk with them if they didn't want their money.

Then again maybe that guy was actually a PRO asking about the differences in the new product versus the old one. Have you NEVER done that?

You have some valid points, but I sense (and maybe I am wrong and I appologize in advance) that you're one of those guys that think a DIY'er is taking food off your table. This is free enterprise. No one guranteed you all of the boiler repairs in your territory.

Just my $0.02
Phil

Unknown

Phil,

> Noel

>

> What do you consider a "retail outlet"

> for plumbing and heating supplies? Around here

> (Long Island) we have the big box places (retail

> w/limited assortments) and we have supply

> houses.

>

> No one tries to pull up to a refinery

> with a gerry-can for #2 oil. That's a weak

> analogy that you tried to make. Likewise no one

> drives to Bell & Gossett manufacturing plant to

> "get a deal" on a circulator.

>

> There are often

> 2 sides or more to the "story". DIY'ers cannot

> all be lumped into one pile. Same way, all

> contractors cannot all be lumped into one

> category. Some "PROs" don't know much.

>

> The

> DIY'ers who hold up the line at the supply house

> asking questions might not even visit this site.

> And those that do visit here probably won't come

> forward and say "That was me". That's one side.

> If you're just venting some frustration about

> standing in line long times that's OK. Vent

> away. I hate long lines at the supper

> market.

>

> Another side is, many DIY'ers ARE

> knowledgeable and do know what they are doing for

> the non-dangerous stuff. The parts for said

> non-dangerous stuff are not always available

> EXCEPT at a supply house. Maybe I am wrong but

> it sounds like you would want me to go buy a

> micro-bubble air separator from ACME Oil and

> Boiler Repairs rather than go into a supply house

> and ask for it and pay right then and there. Am

> I "allowed" to stand in line in front of you for

> that? _g_

>

> I installed my own boiler. I had

> to. My oil company (which I had a service

> contract) told me that I had to wait at least 2

> weeks for a covered replacement when my boiler

> died. It was 0* to 5* that February week. They

> were too busy. "Oh we will honor the contract

> but in at least 2 weeks". Somewhere in 36 hours

> time span, the burner had stopped and the house

> froze and the boiler cracked. The company had

> been there the prior week to "service" a no heat

> call. Other companies I called were also too

> busy.

>

> I went to a supply house said I have a

> xxxBTU boiler and need a replacement - whatcha

> got?

>

> They described what they had. Showed me

> the specs for 3 different models. They took my

> money and sold me a boiler. Did I alienate

> anyone by doing this? I don't know, I was

> pretty alienated by "my" oil and service company

> to notice.

>

> Should I have called you up at ACME

> Oil and Repairs and asked you to sell retail to

> me? Not gonna happen.

>

> I can understand you

> being perturbed when waiting in line and someone

> is asking questions. It takes longer for you to

> get to your next job. The supply house doesn't

> *have* to talk with them if they didn't want

> their money.

>

> Then again maybe that guy was

> actually a PRO asking about the differences in

> the new product versus the old one. Have you

> NEVER done that?

>

> You have some valid points,

> but I sense (and maybe I am wrong and I

> appologize in advance) that you're one of those

> guys that think a DIY'er is taking food off your

> table. This is free enterprise. No one

> guranteed you all of the boiler repairs in your

> territory.

>

> Just my $0.02 Phil

Unknown

Phil,

> Noel

>

> What do you consider a "retail outlet"

> for plumbing and heating supplies? Around here

> (Long Island) we have the big box places (retail

> w/limited assortments) and we have supply

> houses.

>

> No one tries to pull up to a refinery

> with a gerry-can for #2 oil. That's a weak

> analogy that you tried to make. Likewise no one

> drives to Bell & Gossett manufacturing plant to

> "get a deal" on a circulator.

>

> There are often

> 2 sides or more to the "story". DIY'ers cannot

> all be lumped into one pile. Same way, all

> contractors cannot all be lumped into one

> category. Some "PROs" don't know much.

>

> The

> DIY'ers who hold up the line at the supply house

> asking questions might not even visit this site.

> And those that do visit here probably won't come

> forward and say "That was me". That's one side.

> If you're just venting some frustration about

> standing in line long times that's OK. Vent

> away. I hate long lines at the supper

> market.

>

> Another side is, many DIY'ers ARE

> knowledgeable and do know what they are doing for

> the non-dangerous stuff. The parts for said

> non-dangerous stuff are not always available

> EXCEPT at a supply house. Maybe I am wrong but

> it sounds like you would want me to go buy a

> micro-bubble air separator from ACME Oil and

> Boiler Repairs rather than go into a supply house

> and ask for it and pay right then and there. Am

> I "allowed" to stand in line in front of you for

> that? _g_

>

> I installed my own boiler. I had

> to. My oil company (which I had a service

> contract) told me that I had to wait at least 2

> weeks for a covered replacement when my boiler

> died. It was 0* to 5* that February week. They

> were too busy. "Oh we will honor the contract

> but in at least 2 weeks". Somewhere in 36 hours

> time span, the burner had stopped and the house

> froze and the boiler cracked. The company had

> been there the prior week to "service" a no heat

> call. Other companies I called were also too

> busy.

>

> I went to a supply house said I have a

> xxxBTU boiler and need a replacement - whatcha

> got?

>

> They described what they had. Showed me

> the specs for 3 different models. They took my

> money and sold me a boiler. Did I alienate

> anyone by doing this? I don't know, I was

> pretty alienated by "my" oil and service company

> to notice.

>

> Should I have called you up at ACME

> Oil and Repairs and asked you to sell retail to

> me? Not gonna happen.

>

> I can understand you

> being perturbed when waiting in line and someone

> is asking questions. It takes longer for you to

> get to your next job. The supply house doesn't

> *have* to talk with them if they didn't want

> their money.

>

> Then again maybe that guy was

> actually a PRO asking about the differences in

> the new product versus the old one. Have you

> NEVER done that?

>

> You have some valid points,

> but I sense (and maybe I am wrong and I

> appologize in advance) that you're one of those

> guys that think a DIY'er is taking food off your

> table. This is free enterprise. No one

> guranteed you all of the boiler repairs in your

> territory.

>

> Just my $0.02 Phil

John_37

Works for me

I don't have a problem with that. I live kind of in the boonies. We don't have any BORGs around here. When I was doing electrical work on my house I could get most of what I needed at the hardware store. There were a few items that they didn't stock. When I needed them they called one of the two electrical supply houses in my city to find out if what I wanted was available. The hardware store had an account with them. They would place the order and tell them I was coming down. I would pay the hardware store and they would get thier mark-up. They would then give me a PO and I would drive to the supply house to pick it up. It worked great. One of the parts broke 2 days after I bought it (a 3/4 inch, 54 inch long felxible drill bit - a great tool for remodle work). I went back to the supply house on my own and got a new one. If wasn't that big of a deal. I wasn't taking up any more time than any one else.

Greg

Unknown

Phil,

Let me introduce my self.

http://trainingroom.slantfin.com/bios.html

My customers are manufacturer's reps in the US and beyond; wholesalers, contractors, and homeowners.

As you know, Home Depot and Lowes sell our products. There are 3 or 4 wholesalers selling to them, the same ones that contractors buy from.

I handle warranty claims. I have some experience with homeowners that are doing it themselves. In an effort to not upset anyone, I'm trying to demonstrate how manufacturers prefer our products to be sold. I've been in your shoes,too.

I think wholesalers should direct individual customers to contractors to buy retail. I really think fewer hassles will result.

Noel

hr

Is there ANYTHING that can't be purchased via www.

these days. Between the professional supply chains a e-bay, I can't imagine there is much of anything not availabe. If you don't have it on the shelf locally.

They accept credit cards and most stuff arrives within days of your order.

So if a DIYer really needs a rare of hard to find heating part or component... I'm not buying that DIYers can't get the same stuff the pros do story

hot rod

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Earthfire

The problem with DIY

A few years back even before the McDonalds coffe dumbness, a homeowner buys a used Sears gas waterheater from a another homeowner, has son DIY install in home . If memory serves a couple of people died that night.Home owner & lawyer sued Sears because there was no label on heater that said do not install without vent pipe to outside. DUH!! About the time this discussion of assumed DIY'er bashing by "PRO's" started , a homeowner's son (as it turned out) posted about a boiler that would not shut down. H_ _L YEH, I told him to call a gas pro!He had stated that he changed the thermostat and it was still running. Did he call the gas company or a heating tech for help? NO! HE fires up his computer and wants a diagnosis, while the boiler is still firing. Which one or combination of things were we supposed to help him diagnose? Turn the power and gas off and get help!!Then he comes back and says HA HA HO HO it was only crossed wires and I know how to use a volt meter but a tech(family friend ) found the problem.

Fuel is dangerous whether it is gas, oil, or electric. Why do you think a contractor's insurance costs are so high? Accidents happen even to pro's. A couple of years ago one of the best gas tech in this part of the state go burned by a gas furnace. Took three months before he could go back to work,He was lucky.

After it is shut down and safe, you want to talk about what to check and how to do it safely, I'm all ears.

If its running and won't shut down, got fire rolling out the hole in the side, or out the hole in the stack, or its glowing in the dark, and your taking the time to go on line to find out how to fixit! Give ME a BREAK!!!! Get a pro before your neighbor has to call 911 to carry you or your family out on a stretcher. Why do most people get burned in a kitchen fire? They try to put the fire out instead of calling the fire department for help. IT's A SAFETY THING There's a time to hang out in the stern of the boat and fish and there's a time to abandon ship.

Patchogue Phil_21

Noel

You said "I think wholesalers should direct individual customers to contractors to buy retail."

You really think a contractor is going to sell parts to individual customers (DIY or otherwise)?

"Hello, Acme Radiant Installers? Joe DIY here. I wanna buy a 3-way mixing valve from you. Yeah, the wholesaler guys told me you are a contractor who uses them and you'd sell me one".

I'd love to hear the response to that call.