MZ vs Munchkin reliability

cruizer

...give up modulationg feature? Weil-McLain Ultra Series Boilers. Tired and true European design, and a 10 year warranty.

R. Kalia

pls explain why Munchkin and not MZ

A few days earlier I asked "How long will the Munchkin last?" My concerns were based on warranty language, but several more experienced people confirmed that they did not expect the Munchkin to last all that long.

MZ makes a condensing (but not modulating, except 2 stages on their largest model) boiler line, with built-in air separator and some with built-in tank. They warrant heating components including exchanger in full for 10 years, vs. pro-rated 7 yrs on Munchkin.

But what really impressed me was the following plain-English statement in their FAQ:

HOW OFTEN DOES THE MZ FAIL ?

MZs that have not had the recommended service will begin to experience intermittent no-heat calls after an average of five to seven years of normal use in a climate such as that experienced in the Midwest states of the USA. The spark igniter or flame rod, which are bathed in flame, will require adjustment or replacement in time because flame, like running water, wears things away. No other operating parts are exposed to the MZ's flame that way. Some of the ash from the dust that is brought into the MZ with its combustion air will cling to the stainless-steel heat exchanger in the MZ and cause intermittent flame failure in time. A regular 15-minute clean-and- check prevents these failures.

If an annual clean-and-check is run on the MZ, the likelihood that the MZ will need other service is very, very, very low. The MZ is designed in the same fail-safe way that a fine boat or airplane is, and has a virtually unlimited life expectancy if it is given proper care.

===

I don't know if this is true, but it sure sounds good, as good as any high-quality cast-iron boiler. Maybe I should go with tried-and-true European technology even if I have to give up the modulating feature? (Outdoor reset can be added via external Tekmar unit.)

R. Kalia

weird reset curve

I rejected the WM Ultra early on because of the incredibly weird reset curve---see pg. 10 of the 'Ultra Control Supplement' on their web pages. The curve reaches the maximum water temperature at +32F outside, and stays fixed there for all lower outdoor temperatures. This is not adjustable.

Now the max water temp can be one of three values (120, 160, 190). The reset curve (and thus the Ultra itself) appears to be aimed at low-temperature radiant applications needing 120. In our house, with baseboard and radiators, we'd rarely get the benefit of condensing if the water hits 190F when it is still warm (+32F) outside. On the other hand, we'd never be able to heat the house in -15F weather if the water temp never goes above 120 or 160. As I said, weird.

Mike T., Swampeast MO

That plain English...

...sounds like it comes from Pete Caruso. From my experience he is both passionate about the product he represents AND sincere. I have ZERO connection with his or ANY company.

The MZ does seem to be among (if not the) most long-lived and reliable of condensing boiler designs, but it is quite expensive.

I always like hearing "indefinite" when regarding longevity. Such certainly comes from standing pilot gas burning American cast iron with little or no maintenance. It also [seems] to be coming from the MZ with reasonable maintenance that [could] be performed by a reasonable homeowner that doesn't require careful water chemistry control/monitoring and/or cleaning the inside of the HX.

I keep hearing that the US version of the MMZ (modulating MZ) is in the works but release date seems to be continually delayed.

jw

Reset

May be the best reason to use the munchkin. I have seen them installed on standing CI rads and the comfort level is close to floor panels.

Warranty is 7 yrs full and prorata to 12. If you have the Vision1 reset and indirect software installed by a certified installer, he can also offer a 5 yr parts and labor agreement thru HTP for a very reasonable sum.

Munchkins have had some teething problems. Biggest was early blowers parting way with the shaft. This was addressed with a much beefier impeller and also a more secure electical connection. Air proving switches were another problem (as they are with ALL the equipment that uses them) This was addressed recently by eliminating the switch and using the hall effect feedback from the fan to prove. HTP is working to make the munchkin WORK. Actually, the last worry for me has been the HX. Talk to me in 10 years or so.

If you truly want "trouble free" performance at any cost, use a CI standing pilot boiler. This boiler is the least expensive to buy and proven for over 50 yrs. The cost is in the operation.

I personally like the new technology and drive cars with fuel injection controled by computers rather than the "simple" model A with a carb.

Whatever you choose, make it your choice and then live with it.

Dave Yates (PAH)

In my parent's closet

where I grew up, there was this light bulb that refused to quit shining. As the years went by, its outer glass turned darker, but it continued to glow. After more than ten years, it took on elder status as all of the other light bulbs were replaced - some quite often & Mom would lament how they didn't seem to hold the same quality as that one lone globe in their closet. When it finally died, I remember we all gathered for its replacement & gave it a solemn toss into file 13. That one bulb lasted for more than twenty years.

This discussion regarding the projected life span of a Munchkin, MZ or Ultra reminds me of that experience. Bulbs back then began sporting hours of life one could expect bulbs to burn. Somehow that never seemed to add up and, while some lasted a good long while, others seemed to last little more than a single day. Others never lasted beyond the trip home and were DOA!

As for their cost? The flourescent twisted bulbs designed to replace incandescent bulbs are a good deal more expensive, yet save energy while giving off the same lumens - or even more. A buck twenty for the old technology or four fifty for the new? Up front costs or return on investment?

We now install the full range of products where boilers are concerned. Not everyone is ready to embrace the condensibng boilers, but today's rising fuel bills are driving consumers crazy & don't we all hate change? This change in fuel costs are causing many to search the internet and consider the flourescent energy saving bulbs, if you follow my drift.

Modulation is the key, in my opinion, and there's no turning back. The MZ is one heck of a fine, reliable product and we have yet to experience a problem with their products. The Munchkin has been a great product too and it's great sport to sit idly by while watching this little beauty work its modulating magic. Both are backed by companies and people who tackle issues head-on without flinching. Same goes for the other hi-eff products entering this ever-changing market. And not meaning to leave cast iron boilers ignored - they too deserve kudos for being one of the most long-lived and reliable devices man has ever invented with scores of great people standing ready at a moments notice to lend assistance.

Just depends on what watt wattage you're looking to put in the closet for lighting up your world. As for longevity? If I knew that answer, I'd have hit the lottery a long time ago and be sending this from my own island in the tropics where heating and, for that matter, lighting wouldn't be a dire necessity(G).

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

GEO_3

You can buy 2 Munchkins for the price of one WM Ultra. As far as Warrantee goes last time I looked most of the CI boilers out there are 1 year

Unknown

My vote goes to,,,

The amazing MZ wall hung boiler and the dedicated people at Monitor Products INC. Pete Caruso is one of the best. Geminox's THI modulating unit will be available for North America "soon" I'm being told. Don't let that stop you from using the MZ. Simplicity=Relyability.

Gary

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Ken_8

Me thinks we may have

seen a pre-cursor of Mr. Yates inimitable writing skills before or during publication in a larger venue.

Very well written. Very informative and above all - no BS.

Thanks David

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Dave Yates (PAH)

nope

Not headed for a publication unless P&M picks it from the thread. Just rambling thoughts rumbling through my mind after watching numerous posts regarding longevity of the new products. Thanks for your kind words & I'll owe you a beer for that at WS IV!

Our world is changing at such a rapid pace it seems we're all busting our butts just keeping up. New rules & new ideas for the need to provide annual service keep popping up. They're either seen as new opportunities for keeping our foot in the door or a curse that interferes with our ability to install things and walk away for about 50 years.

If you were to ask me, I see these changes as opportunities to be embraced as equipment becomes high-tech and drives the need for highly skilled technicians. I'm also in favor of certification being required to obtain parts or access the controls, which protects both manufacturer and technician from having uneducated, untrained and underqualified individuals from dabbling in things they should be leaving to those of us who invested the time to get educated and who have the needed background for the base skills to support the new knowledge.

Say what you will about foreign products, but Viessman puts their money where their mouth is when it comes to training. I had the priveledge of being a guest at their School of Technology in Germany for an overnighter & I'll tell you this - the digs are austere by our standards. It's obvious the students are there to learn, not luxuriate in comfy rooms. No TV, no phone & a bed that's hard as a stone - but there is a desk in the corner and two sources of heat: a panel rad; and a towel warmer - both with thermostatic valves. The labs and classrooms are where they dropped the dime & they are spectacular. Stunning is the word that comes to mind. Made me want to go back to school again!(G)

I love it that our US manufacturers have heard the call to arms and have joined the race for high efficiency products. I look forward to the day when it is our home-based products being exported to Europe and the tide turns. Hey, if Detroit can get their act together, so can our hydronics manufacturers. However, in all likelyhood, I expect to see a blending of products as our global economy and ever-shrinking world allows everyone to work on joint projects.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

R. Kalia

fuel injection is bleeding edge?

> I personally like the new

> technology and drive cars with fuel injection

> controled by computers rather than the

> "simple" model A with a carb.


Me too. But fuel injection is reliable, tried-and-true technology now, not "new technology". Have you bought a hybrid yet? If not, why not, and when will you buy one? Yeah, me too. Same for boilers.

Brian

Trinity

You can also look at the "Trinity".It condenses as well as modulates.It has a 10 year warranty,and is cheaper than the Munchkin,at least they are up here in Ontario.Check them out at www.nythermal.com

Good Luck
Brian

munchkin-man

Go Munchkin with pride we stand behind our products

Wayco Wayne_2

I've been looking into a Prius.

I'm a sucker for being the first one to try any new technology or gadget. Spmetimes burned, sometimes blessed. Never bored. WW

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Alan(CaliforniaRadiant)Forbes

It seems as though

your very serious about your boiler selection and maybe even that money is not an issue. Why not choose a boiler that has the reliability of an MZ with the flame modulation and outdoor reset features of a Munchkin?

I haven't followed your thread from the beginning; was there talk abot the Vitodens boiler anywere along the line?


To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Guy_5

Munchkin

Just an FYI- Munchkin serial #0001 is alive and well here in southeastern Mass.

R. Kalia

good point

>Why not

> choose a boiler that has the reliability of an MZ

> with the flame modulation and outdoor reset

> features of a Munchkin?


Good point. Unfortunately, while I am not looking for the cheapest boiler, I can't afford the most expensive either. Lots of things to balance.