Custmer holding back money,Please give me your thoughts.

nick z.

One of the best carpenters in our area calls me to move
a piece of heat. I showup, and it turns out ot be a whole bathroom remodel. custmer is a very nice 70yr old lady.
Job was going fine until both I and the carp. get a call that the tub was chipped. Sure enough there was a chip about the size of a pencil eraser in the bottom.No one was blamed for it, and no one really knew when or how it happened.The lady got ALL of the fixtures herself at local plumbing supply. I explained the tub could be reapaired and she would never be able to see it.But she said she didn't want atub that would chip that easy, and was upset to find out thar Americast wasn't cast iron .She wanted a new tub.The lady in the supply house showroom said they would gladly take back the tub.As per the custmer, all they were going to charge her was the differnce in price between the americast and the Kohler C.I. tub.
The carp. and I are both paid separetly, the lady has paid me no questons asked, the carp. stopped me the the other day to tell me he got his last payment with the price of the tub deducted!For some reason she is convinced the carp. damaged the tub.We both agreed when the chip was discovered that we would share the price of a new tub if it came to that.
Now, as I see it there are several issues.
1. The lady bought and had all the fixtures on the job when I got there.For all i know tub could have been chipped when she got it.
2. I think we should have been given a a chanche to have the chip repaired.
3.she didnt' want the tub in the first palce she replaced with something different.
I swear to god if I knowingly chipped this tub I would have been the first one to try and make it right. It just seems like the carp. and I are getting the blame for something none knows how it happened.
Do you think we should make a fuss, or just pay the $400 and be on our way.

Bill_14

Yes,

Pay for the experience and go on your way. Tubs, showers and the like gotta' be protected very well from "head to toe" all during construction because you own it until the job is sold. Sorry you had this experience...it could have been a lot worse though.

Bill

DanHolohan

70-year-old lady?

Smile and walk away. Life's a long-term proposition.

hr

While it's water under the bridge

We used to buy tub protectors for all new installation. i believe Benjamin Plastice makes them. About 7 bucks.

I'd say split the difference with the carpenter so you can continue a working relationship, and get additional refferals.

hot rod

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jackchips_2

Eat the

$400.00. You'll get it back, and more, in the long run.

Phil_6

I'm with everyone else..

split it with him and forget it.

Dave Yates (PAH)

Hindsight is always 20/20

After similar experiences, we developed a warranty statement regarding materials and/or fixtures supplied by others. It has saved us from the grief you're experiencing on numerous occasions and on more than one occasion, the owners and/or contractors have decided it's in their best interest to have us supply the materials/fixtures.

Feel free to copy and use:

With your providing some of the material for the (insert work description here), I wanted to clarify our policy regarding warranty work. In the past, we have had several instances where products failed prematurely or where items proved to be defective or damaged, which resulted in confusion about where the division lies between our responsibilities and those who supplied the products.

RE: Warranty Policy for (insert your company name here)

It is our policy to provide a full (insert your time frame here) labor and material warranty only on materials purchased through (your firm name here). When others provide materials and/or fixtures, we do not include any warranty for either labor or materials.

In the event one of these products should not fit in the space as needed, break or prove to be defective, the repairs/replacements will be charged on a time and materials basis. Those charges will include lost time from contract work, time spent dealing with the defect and any material costs involved which can include sundry items associated with the installation of the materials/fixtures.

Warranty expenses are, on average, covered by the normal profit margins we would otherwise gain from the sale of these items. It is imperative for all parties involved in this process to understand our position prior to proceeding with bidding and/or construction.


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nick z.

Thanks everyone

yea thats exactly what I thought.Just FYI, we did protect the tub as much as possible. Thats one reason there is so many unaswered questions. Thanks for all your input.

Rudy

I Agree

Chalk it up to customer relations. Nice addendum, PAH. I have a GC friend/customer who likes to find and buy his own troublesome equipment (read Myson towel warmers and steam injection humidifiers) then expect me to deal with the factory rep when something goes awry while paying me "friend in need" rates. He orders the wrong voltage and somehow it's my fault. Sorry I had a rough day and need to vent. BTW he accounts for little of my gross.

Earthfire_2

Little old ladies!!!

Nick , you guys got done by the little ol lady. Remember that old movie Arsenic and Lace. Without a clause like PAH includes in his contracts your swinging out on a thin limb. As I read this story, the supply house took back the plastic tub and charged her the difference for the iron tub. Now she wants you guys to pay the difference for the material after you guys changed it out for her. Take her to court and Judge Judy will probable rule for you, but The Little Old Lady has time on her hands,and funds arriving by direct deposit every month. You have to go out and work for your money. The time you spend on legal proceedings will cost a lot more then what she deducted from the bill. Send her a IRS Form 1099 next January for the amount of debt forgiveness that you are giving her. Forgiven debts are taxable income per IRS regulations. and that also justifies your deduction for bad debt. By the way I give my deadbeats a chance in December to pay their bills by the end of the month or recieve a 1099. Suprising how many choose to pay me, not the IRS. The ones that don't pay by Jan 15 get the 1099 filed with The IRS on Jan 30 and they get hit with unearned income, and I get the deduction.

Dave Yates (PAH)

Yup

I musta met his brother. Builder hands me a menu - so much for a 1st fl wc, so much more if'n it's on an upper floor. Then he drops the bomb - he's got a direct account with Kohler. Kicker is, I'm to arrange for shiping, store the fixtures AND provide a one year warranty on the fixtures he's providing.

A-yup, I was born at night - it's just that I wasn't born last night!

The hell of it is, he's got plumbers beating his door down to get a piece of that action! They could all stand to read Ellen Rohr's books - except they're too busy to find the time.

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kk_2

Was she out any money?

It sounds like the supply house took back the chipped tub and only charged her the difference between it and the cast iron tub? Am I understanding that correctly?

If that is true, I'm not sure why she is squabbling over the $400. I must be missing something here. Is the $400 the price difference between the 2 tubs?

Brian_19

Tub

I always have the homeowner inspect the tub of shower unit
after I am through installing it. Lots of other trades coming in there after me. I take myself out of the loop early.

Joel_3

hmm

I'm a little confused as it sounds like she shouldn't have payed for anything but the upgrade to a better tub scratch or not , since she decided she wanted the better tub. Even so I vote with the other guys, chalk it up to lesson learned and make sure you right it off as bad debt to at least get yourself a little back from our great Uncle

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Robert O'Connor_7

Tub trouble?

I wouldn't pay a dime! Did you or one of your men damage it? Didn't think so. So why pay??? I got thousands of reas$ns not to... BOC

Dave DeFord

Just a little info on the bad debt..

tactic. It's a zero sum game. If you want to take the bad debt deduction you have to recognize the revenue. If you don't recongize the revenue then you can't take the bad debt deduction. You can send the woman a 1099 but she has an out as she will claim that she was damaged and thus never owed the money in the first place. The upshot is that you will probably be further ahead by dropping the whole issue, learning the lesson of having the customer inspect the tub or any other work before you begin working and when you leave to CYA. It may not be pretty or fair, but as Dan said life't too short.

Mad Dog

Great advice, Bill

We've had the exact same experience. Look, We've all dropped things on tile or in a tub without having a drop cloth down - sometimes you get lucky. However, you know when you do it because the first thing you do is look down to see if you've done any damage, right? There are no real surprises in these situations. Maybe the carpenter did do it and she has a good hunch. What we do now after we install and before anyone else sets foot in the room, is bring in the homeowner for a visual inspection. If they seem quiky, we will make them sign off that tub is not damaged and we are not responsible from that point until we set the trim. We've tried the tub liners and other things, but they are often moved or removed by the carpenters or the tile guys. We've taken up liners that had cement board under them that had scratched the tub. That each tradesman who works in that tub be responsible and we have not had a damged one in years. Split diffrence with carpenter and move on. Mad Dog

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Mad Dog

You might be right Mr earthfire..................

I have the utmost respect for my elders - just because thats how I was raised - but that does not preclude that some of these old folks were shysters their whole lives, and they ain't changin' now! Either way, it is not worth the trouble. Mad Dog

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Mad Dog

smart man

mad dog

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nick z.

Theres more

Guys thers alot more to the story, I just tried to keep it short as possible. To start, this lil'old lady is quite well to do.She paid $947 for her tub spigots.Spent alomost $5,000.00 on tub, ped. sink, and toilet.
Also there is 30 something yr. old guy on the job most of the time.He really chewed the carp. asss one day because we didn't vacuum the bathroom everyday, said we chipped the entrace door to the house. Then he got on me because apipe was crooked in the wall.I told him if he wanted to move joist under the floor, I would gladly straighten, the pipe.Then he asked me why Iput the out let above the simk. "looks stupid, the first thing you see is the outlet."Why didn't you put it below the sink?" So I moved below the sink.His next statment almost left him checking his dental plan, "Thers no need for heat in the floor. She doesn't need to spend money on that." (remember the $947 faucets?) I told how I just mentioned the radiant to the lady and she thought it was a great idea.But its fine with me I really didn't want to crawl around in acrawl space any how.Also back to the money, the floor to be heated is about 4'x5'. All this happened before the tub fiasco. I'm sure we will just take on the chin, but its like admitting your wrong when your not. Thanks for all your replys.

DanHolohan

\"Admiting you're wrong when you're not.\"

I do that ALL the time. I'm married. ;-)

Earthfire

I feel your pain

Is it a boy toy or a deadbeat relation? Who was the customer on the job her or him? You guys need to do a face to face with her nice & polite and then if she still refuses to pay 1099. This bird is trying to protect the bankaccount whether stealing from her or planned inheritance or both. I tell the customer any changes deviations from original approved proposal have to be authorized in writing be the person that signed the contract and is paying the bill no signiture no change. Takes the young moocher out of the picture. Not an unusuall requirement as any who help older relatives deal with doctors, banks, medicare ,etc. know.I must either have an written authorization on file with the organization or produce a written power of attorney or have my mom standing next to me to get any info from them.

Earthfire

But there is a benefit to that!!!!!

You get to spend another day basking in the light of her presence at least until your wrong again and the cloud returns. Ah YES!! LOVE!!!! it is a many splendored thing. :-)