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Mr Hunt ... to the ER
ScottMP
Member Posts: 5,883
But on the show ER last night, the main story line was a family who were sick due to CO.
I know its a TV show but they were talking about CO and its effects. The mother of the family was fine due to being pregnant and they claimed the unborn child absorbed the CO. The child was bron and then put into a decompresion chamber to force oxygen into is blood.
I suppose any attention is good, right Mark ?
Scott
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I know its a TV show but they were talking about CO and its effects. The mother of the family was fine due to being pregnant and they claimed the unborn child absorbed the CO. The child was bron and then put into a decompresion chamber to force oxygen into is blood.
I suppose any attention is good, right Mark ?
Scott
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Comments
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I didn't watch it
but my wife did.
She thought it was pretty neat to see an issue that she hears A LOT about on a TV program.
If you guys think I talk about CO a lot here, how do you think my wife feels?
Spread the word!
Mark H
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On the news a few days ago
They had a segment on co statistics. I was glad to see they finally showed something on it that is broadcast to all.0 -
well at least
with oil heat you can tell when it's producing
large amounts of CO unlike gas heating...0 -
???????
How is that?
Mark H
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WHAT????
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CO
OK with oil heat, The system has to be producing large amounts of soot and smoke, in order to produce large amounts of CO. example plugged boiler, plugged chimney base, hung piston, clogged filter,oil line, cracked endcone, plugged airgate, dirty burner fan. these are abvious signs to a home owner that something is wrong with there heating system. unlike some people out there that are home owners and don't care and they figure they'll save some money and not get an Annual Tune Up! and then you see them on the news, like we should feel bad for them. When it's just because they don't maintain there household equipment.
with Gas heat - it doesn't produce the smells like oil heat would, but i have seen a gas boiler plugg up..
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No it doesn't Steve
You can have the cleanest burn going and still have HUGE amounts of CO.
Annual cleanings do NOT prevent CO from being produced, and in many cases, they leave a customer with a false sense of security.
Unless specific testing is done, you cannot possibly know how much CO is being produced.
This is a dangerous misconception that MANY HVAC contractors believe.
The picture here is an oil fired furnace that was producing 0 smoke...............
and 376ppm CO! 8ppm CO in the air stream.
The unit was "serviced" by a "reputable oil company" a few weeks before we did a home energy assesment.
I would encourage you to get to a few classes on combustion and CO.
Mark H
P.S. The crack in the HX did not produce the CO either. The high levels were caused by the flame impinging on the HX.
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ok well
there's your answer... not only do we have a dry base boiler
in that picture, but we have gases seeping out from the back
wall???was the chamber inspected??? any time i do annual tune ups i know when i'm done i'm satisfied, because i produce excellent workmanship. now not only do we have a dry base boiler that has a crack in the back of it, which allows the gases to escape into the house but we also have a fire hazard in that picture... enough said...0 -
Correction
That's not a dry-base boiler.
It's a Furnace, A.K.A. "Furnasty" that blew CO thru ducts into the house. This is one of many reasons we don't like scorched-air heat.
ANY combustion process cas produce CO. It doesn't matter what fuel is used. I've seen oil burners producing CO even after the boiler flue passages are clean.
You really need to educate yourself here. Then maybe you'll be able to do the right thing for your customers.
To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"All Steamed Up, Inc.
Towson, MD, USA
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
Consulting0 -
also
it didn't take three weeks for that boiler to get like that.
if i went on a call to a boiler like that and the ATU was done just three weeks ago. i wouldn't have to much faith in that mech...0 -
first off
I am educated. 2nd you have a pic of the back bottom part of it. ok so the small pic that you have of it through me off. it's a Hot Air Furnace. something that i would not walk away from. I would have condemned it.0 -
Not a boiler Steve
forced air furnace.
No smoke, lots of CO.
As I said, annual cleanings are not enough to ensure proper combustion.
If you are not testing with a combustion analyser, you;re just guessing.
I'm sure you do fine work, and I do not intend to insult your ability. The fact is that the misconception that oil doesn't produce CO is embedded into too many peoples minds.
It is obvious that the "service" tech did NOT really go over this unit, and it is blatantly obvious that NO combustion analysis was performed, ever.
0 smoke, 11% CO2, -.03 draft, that's what was written on the service invoice.
No mention of CO testing at all.
The people in this house were being poisoned because someone didn't know what they were doing. They were guessing.
Mark H
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and another thing
I am what you call a resolve specialist.
I would appreciate it if you would not insult my intelligence thank you... i'll have to send you a pic
one day of my work and then it should change your mind
about my intelligence.. thanks steve!0 -
> I am what you call a resolve specialist. I would
> appreciate it if you would not insult my
> intelligence thank you... i'll have to send you a
> pic one day of my work and then it should change
> your mind about my intelligence.. thanks steve!
Steve,
No one is questioning your intelligence, just your CO knowledge. Oil is the most dangerous when it is not smoking and making thousands of ppm of CO. Oil only producing CO when it is smoking is one of the biggest fallacies of the oil industry! Without CO testing an oil furnace cannot be properly tuned!!0 -
Steve,
No one is questioning your intelligence, just your CO knowledge. Oil is the most dangerous when it is not smoking and making thousands of ppm of CO. Oil only producing CO when it is smoking is one of the biggest fallacies of the oil industry! Without CO testing an oil furnace cannot be properly tuned!!0 -
ok jim
i definitley believe what you're saying.
there's no way around that. lol... it just amazes me
how fast we are to blame the equipment and not the hands
behind it. and yes will definitley upgrade myself on CO.
thanks steve0 -
Right on!
In fact when an oilburner is making smoke it's probably less dangerous that when it's not.
Steve, you really need more info on CO. In my opinion it's not that you're stupid, it's that you're undereducated and that's not entirely your fault. I never blame a student for not knowing, I blame his previous teachers.
The oil industry has been screwed up about CO forever. When I first mentioned it in a seminar in 1978 people wanted to stone me, now I wouldn't do a seminar on Combustion without and the industry would think less of me if I didn't.
Go to some seminars, read up on CO and if you'd like buy my book on Combustion at www.FiredragonEnt.com, it's written by an oilman with 35 years of experience.
In the short term read the material on CO on the net just by punching CO or Carbon Monoxide in any search engine, it will amaze you, FACT!0 -
CO testing
Let me make sure that I understand what is being said here. If I "tune up" an oil burning unit and my test results are -.02 draft over the fire, -.o5 draft at breach, 12% co2, 0 smoke, and 500 degree net stack. And I don't test for CO, I have done something wrong? Can this unit cause a CO problem? Lets say the unit is not dammaged in any way. Lets also say the unit meets all code requirements. I did have my first CO scare the other day. That is for another post. Our company has never worked on that unit before. It scared the _____ out of me when the HO told me the story.0 -
now you're killin me ...
let me say this... CO does not enter a house mysteriously or magicaly or, because it feels like it. It will enter a house when there are leaks,cracks,openings, or abviously when something is wrong... it will find the path to least resistance. i never had any problem CO... like I said it's the hand behind the equipment...0 -
Practically everything that burns creates CO, FACT!
At those parameters and due to that good draft you and your customer would be okay, since in my experience you would be in the 1-4 PPM range for CO. That's based on field testing. I NEVER recommend or TEACH that an oilburner be left at over 12-1/2% and haven't since 1978.
Here's a couple of articles that say quite a bit in a short amount of space.
http://www.testo.de/US/lig/upload/mwmlus_1034594166093_1.pdf
http://www.testo.de/US/lig/upload/mwmlus_1034594141359_1.pdf
CO has gained more and more attention as efficiencies have climbed but I keep this quote in my head all the time; CO versus CO2, one damn oxygen atom, and all the difference in the world, quote Bill McKibben, Not So Fast, New York Times magazine, July 23, 1995, p. 24-25.
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No, but a misadjusted burner will, FACT!
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\"i never had any problem CO... \"
"In one ear and out the other", Have you ever heard the phrase?
C0 IS STEALTH!!!!
Yes I am yelling, why? Because you don't know it's there if you don't test.
So when you leave the job how can you be sure you never had any problems with it?
Mark leaves no stone unturned.
al0 -
Steve
you ain't gettin by with that remark,explain please J. Lockard0 -
one more time
first - A misadjusted burner ok why is it misadjusted?
more like who did it and ran! never had a problem with CO
WHY? Simple because i have a past history log of all my equipment. And Every time i do a Tune & VAC I actually do the CO test In fact i own a tesco electronic test kit...
don't tell me that i don't test my equipment.0 -
Steve, you're just not getting it!
You can test with your tester for CO2 and O2 until the cows come home, but unless you specifically are looking and testing for CO you're not only not in the right pew, not even in the right church!
Why are you taking afront from people who are trying to help you? You made statements that just don't make sense and people are trying to tell you why and you make wild accusations and keep going back to your experience.
If you were never taught how to test for CO around oil equipment it's because the guys who taught you didn't know how. I know I'd like to get guys back that I taught 25 years ago when the average CO2 was 9% and everything ran at a #1 or worse smoke.
This IS the future, burners can achieve CO2's that were unheard of years ago, FACT! That is the reason why CO is now a problem, along with 100 year old chimneys, powerventers and everything else.
You need to lighten up and learn! The old days of if you can't smell it or see it are gone forever, FACT!
Finally, one last question from me because this is just getting too crazy. If you own a Testo capable of measuring CO what is your problem?0 -
my problem
is that people are misunderstanding me.
CO is Dangerous I Know That, my problem was that picture.
the picture of that furnace. Three weeks before it was shut down someone went to do tune up on it. I Just Don't Understand how they let that get past them. it wouldn't get past me...to me it looks like - (who did it and ran)0 -
Simple question again!
It could have got by you very easily because how could you see it?
If you look at that heat exchanger that hole was in the back, FACT! Probably with the chamber smacked up against it, FACT! If the customer didn't complain of smells and odors, you would never have looked for it, FACT!
That's it, I give up, bye Steve and good luck, FACT!0 -
come on
i don't think so... that would not get past me buddy. maybe you, but not me. Example - i had a call to sign up a customer for a contract. when i went in the basement and inspected the furnace, it didn't take me too long to fill out a recomendation report for NEW Equipment and they did not get the contract...0 -
Chamber?
the chamber was probably shot!0 -
I wish I could be so purfuct!
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Yes Steve
The chamber was shot.
Your original post said that oil will not mmake CO when it is burning clean. That burner was burning clean.
I never said it was the equipments fault. It was human error. The service tech that visited this home has no clue what he was doing and could have killed everyone in the house including the 2 year old that lived there.
If that tech had done a CO test, he would have found the same thing I did. I checked the combustion BEFORE anything else. We also had a CO tester in the ductwork.
The fact still remains that no CO test was done. Not ever.
I have yet to see a spot on a combustion report that includes CO. CO2, O2, draft, stack temp., and efficiency. That's it. No CO.
As previously stated, anything that burns can create CO. Even smoke free oil.
Mark H
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just an afterthought
But steve do your realize that you are coming off as the perfect person..What is going to happen when god forbid something goes wrong and you get into court and the lawyer says'.."but how did it happen" you didn't need to be taught..you didn't need to listen..you just needed to show your the best..I am a gas tech. I have seen many unit's that you couldn't/wouldn't find a crack in..toss in a smoke grenade..nothing..;) fill em with water and pee everywhere...I know you do your best but we all try to achive that..think the point here was to take all the step's you can to achive the safest enviroment possible..and say a little prayer and hope the good man is listening..and yes..I have made a mistake with a gas unit, luckily for me I was running a co detector and didnt' leave till I found the crack...OBTW..I think if you were to ask Firedragon he has probably condemned more unit's than you have worked on so far..If nothing else learn from the past to make the future a safer place..0 -
That's said
i just try my best when i'm at work
yes i know 0 smoke fire can produce large amounts of CO
i guess i got emotional from looking at that picture
I notice when i'm at work, I like when i get call for a
tune and vac but only when I know i did the Tune up the Year before, because i know it's gonna be pretty darn clean.
Example - I don't why some techs do what they do.
I had a No Heat call Last Night, the boiler was saturated, and i was there a long time and not happy. Another tech was there a day before for the annual tune up. and forget it, it was not fun. i did notice on some of his calls that i've been back on though, he seems to be messing with the airgate
i really think he doesn't like doing this kind of work
cause it shows in his call back. i just know how to aproach him about this, but feel i have to because i don't want to be bumping into saturated boilers...0 -
how about
maybe he's unsure of what to do? Have you thought of approaching him with the idea of "saw this and this was how I fixed it"...if nothing else ask him..He may someday come back to thank you for pointing it out..I have seen alot of people in this line of work (I live in NH) who have limited training and are dumped in a van and told go for it. ALot of them burn out or just don't care because they have no idea what to do. company give's them the atitude with the no training don't care themself attitude..It's up to those that have the knowledge to share..
Stay warm..:)0 -
it all comes down to
Attitude - knowledge is very important. but attitude comes before knowledge. most of the boilers that are plugged with soot and debree from the chimney is abviously because the tech. was to lazy to do the vac the year before. and you know it gets old. that game gets real old. alot of techs. out there can talk a good talk, but that's about as far as they can go.0 -
Is there an echo in here?
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I just checked out a 90% efficient oil furnace this week. The O2 was 4%-CO2 around 13% the flue temperature was 80 degrees and after 25 pumps with the smoke tester it had a trace of smoke. The CO was 110ppm at light-off, dropped to 35ppm after 2 minutes of run, then rose to 85ppm after 6 minutes and went over 300ppm at shut-down. This furnace will be sooted up in a month or two. Chances are that no one will get poisoned but there is going to be a mess to clean up. Prior to 1985 this type of diagnostics could not even be performed, which made me understand why everyone said oil was dirty. It is easy to lean an oil furnace to keep it from sooting, but this causes our customers to waste money paying us to come. They would have been better off if we stayed home. If you do not know how to do complete CO diagnostics on oil you are like a doctor that can't measure blood pressure. Sure we may live, but how healthy are we?0 -
CO Sources
Steve,
Please don't take this wrong - I'm trying to point out how easy it is for ANY of us to miss something.
Mark posted a picture of a heat exchanger with a bulge, and a crack. In the post with it he explained that this was from a FURNACE, and went on to state the amount of CO in the AIR STREAM.
You missed that part, even though it was right there for all to see. How much easier is it to miss something that is far in the back, hidden from view. None of us is perfect - we all miss some things now and then. The trouble with missing something - if you have missed it, YOU DON'T KNOW YOU MISSED IT, because you didn't see it in the first place to know it was there to be missed. Rather than just testing for CO, we need to train ourselves to test to see that it isn't there - at least not in harmful amounts, or where it shouldn't be.
In this post you talk about attitude coming before knowledge. I couldn't agree more. And here's something that I have found improves my own attitude toward knowledge: "The beginning of all knowledge is to realize how little we know."0 -
Carbon Monoxide
Hey folks, welcome to the LEAST understood non-mystery topic I have seen lately! Can I throw in one more curve Steve? Lets say the day you were there servicing the burner was a nice warm 40 degree day outside temp. And lets say the following day after you leave, the oil delivery truck comes in and adds 250 gallons of 20 degree or even 30 degree fahrenheit fuel oil #2 to the tank. Now by the laws of physics, the NEW oil has more BTUs than the oil sitting in the tank the day you set up the burner. Why? because at 30 degrees fahrenheit, verses 60 degrees in the average basement, the fuel oil has contracted! So there are MORE BTUs in a gallon of cold oil than there in a gallon of warm oil! This is just ONE explaination for what we may not see when we are there, or another factor that can change in the combustion process. The CO production is NOT known in EITHER case,.........unless it it tested! I believe the main point of all the folks here is only to understand the NEED for testing no matter how good you are. or thorough or experienced. None of us can change the laws of physics. And there are more factors to talk about too but I think this thread is getting tired...... Good Luck, be safe and enjoy life! Jeff K.0 -
MH, JD et al
I would love to see this type of dialogue at our ISH-NA panel this fall. Being totally ignorant of the technical side of CO testing and measurement, I would be very curious to see a set of "scenarios" or "troubleshooting" tests set up for meeting attendees to understand how easy it would be to misdiagnose or ignore a problem involving all types of mechanical equipment, not just oil or forced air furnaces.
We know that the main message is to TEST, TEST and TEST again. But beyond that, can we give tangible examples of why it is important to test? Are problems as plain as the nose on our face or do we need to dig further? I'd like to see pics and supporting evidence as to the importance of testing and measuring. Is this doable -- maybe even at Wetstock IV?0
This discussion has been closed.
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