wroght copper vs. brass fittings

bruce norian

We're replacing all the potable water piping (Type L copper) in a 100-unit apartment building. The facility is 30 years old and both the hot and cold water lines are failing. The Copper Development Association analyzed some samples and concluded that it was faulty workmanship (excessive flux) that is the source of the corrosion and is causing the failures.

Based upon the analysis, we're going with Type L copper (again), but we don't know whether to specify wrought copper or cast brass fittings. Is there a situation when one should be used over the other? Are they essentially interchangeable?

Alan(CaliforniaRadiant)Forbes

Seems

as though you should be more concerned with the type of flux that should be used. Stay away from corrosive ones and make sure they clean the flux from the pipe and fittings after soldering. I've only seen pipe fail when the workmanship is sloppy; the flux turns the pipe and fittings green.

But to answer your question, I would think wrought copper would be a better material to use than a cast fitting because it is all copper; brass is a blend of copper and zinc.

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Tim Gardner

How do you tell which fluxes are corrosive?

Alan(CaliforniaRadiant)Forbes

Suppose

you could ask your supplier. La-Co flux is very corrosive and we stopped using it years ago. It's advertised as "self-cleaning"; is so corrosive, you don't even need to take sandcloth to the pipe.

Crest/Good [1(800)862-7378] makes a non-corrosive flux that I like.

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hr

My suggestions

would be to have that water completely analyzed. Hard to believe flux could cause all that. Generally after a few years a film is built up inside to protect the copper, even with flux residue. High velocities will often prevent this "patina" from forming and leave the copper very vunerable to agressive water.

I'd also look at pipe sizing and check velocity. High FPS and unreamed tube will cause problems often blamed on flux.

Extremely soft water, under certain conditions, will also attack copper.

When you start the demo work look inside the soldered connections for signs of un, or improperly reamed tube. IT'S CODE!

If in fact you have low ph water, or other out of wack chemestry, it needs to be treated! It can cause de-zincification, or dealloying of brass fittings and pinhole them under certain conditions.

Of course flushing the system, as the require in medical facilities may be a good final step.

Most all fluxes these days are required to be water soluable.

Reeves Journal had an excellent article on copper pitting, way back in May 1993. I'll bet I could get you a copy. It details what to look for when having copper problems.

The CDA has excellent papers on the subject also. Keep in mind their main focus is to promote copper. But it's not always the "best" product when H2O problems are encountered.

Tons of money has been spent keeping "alternate" piping materials out of California, ie pex

Best to make sure you are handling the problem, not treating the symptom.

hot rod

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Earthfire

why solder?

If you must use copper check out the Pro Press system . Eliminates the Flux issue and is flameless . A no flame is BIG advantage in my view in an occupied building.

jackchips_2

Not much

to add to Hotrod's response.

I do concur that a large failure like that may not be caused totally by the flux. What pressure do you have entering the building?

High pressure and undersized piping will cause more problems than the fluxes used.

With a building this size you should have someone do an analysis of the whole domestic system, including listing all the fixtures, the fixture with the highest required minimum pressure and a schematic in order to size the main and branches.

Cold water should not move faster that 6 or 7 feet per second and hot water around 4 fps.

Alan(CaliforniaRadiant)Forbes

Sorry

I thought Bruce said that the Copper Development Association analyzed the pipe......................


(:-o)


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Mark J Strawcutter

sort of on the topic

Last time I asked about this all I got was flamed. Here's hoping for more constructive responses this time.

SpacePak air handler unit, on the factory-installed "spider" of refrigerant tubing there is lots of greed crud on the solder/braze joints.

Will this eventually cause joint failure, and if so is there anything I can do to correct the situation?

Thanks

Mark

GaryDidier

green crud

Mark,
I have seen what you are talking about and it is corosion from the old flux which is acidic.It will eventually eat through the pipe. A thorough cleaning might help. Thats why wiping a freshly soldered is done. It cleans it up and gives it a professional appearence.
Gary from Granville

hr

It could also be

a cleaner that was used after the soldering process. I use those Hercules Hand wipes to clean after soldering. If I don't use clean water and a rag it will turn to a green sheen in a day or to.

If the cleaner or flux is acid based you need a neautralizer that is on the other end.

If the cleaner is a soap that is alkaline, then the opossite applies.

Regardless, water of neutral ph will usually clean up and stop the "green"

Unless something in the air is causing it. Pool chemicals stored near copper pipe will really "green" things!

hot rod

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