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The Duncan Tank (ME)
Mark Eatherton1
Member Posts: 2,542
is a waste heat recovery system I just developed and am dedicating it to Duncan Wilson, my long time Wall friend and my business partners BEST friend.
I will be installing this system in my own home in the near future, and there will be an article on it coming out in the Contractor Magazine around May of this year.
Thanks for the ideas Duncan!!
ME
I will be installing this system in my own home in the near future, and there will be an article on it coming out in the Contractor Magazine around May of this year.
Thanks for the ideas Duncan!!
ME
0
Comments
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An Inventor lurking around inside of you........
Mark,
There is an inventor lurking around inside of you. There always was and always will be. He's just trying to find a way out.
JR
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Pretty Cool
How do you control the drainage and allow only hot water in the basin ? I would like to see the working on the Quad Rod / Why two ? I could also find uses for a dela -t control, are they on the self?
Good Luck0 -
Ed...
I used the quad rod pictures because I couldn't capture anything from GFXtechnologies web site. I actualy intend to use GFX technologies heat exchangers. The reason for two is for contact time. Two IS better than one, especially when piped parallel reverse return counter flow.
The delta T controller is available from tekmar. Before all the licensed plumbers jump on me, the heat exchanger is considered double walled, no need for RZP backflow preventers:-)
JR, one of these days, hopefully soon, I will be able to capitalize on one of my ideas. Maybe it will be this one.
Wish me luck!
ME0 -
A couple of comments
Mark,
looks cool. Definitely has me thinking.
I am getting ready to use a GFX in my house. They were very exact in saying the jacket cold water had to go from bottom to top or the efficiency will drop.
Also, it's minor, but I would the bring the gray water in below the waterline to help prevent the hot water from being stuck on the surface and exiting too quickly. Maybe just a pipe extending down inside the unit is all that's needed.
If you modified the storage tank a little more, you might be able to get some more work out of the gray water. If you had a full speed overflow pipe and a slow speed drain down lower, it would temporarily increase the water volume when the hot water comes in, allowing to stay around as long as possible. I'm imagining something simple like an L pipe with an open top and a hole drilled in the side at the drain down level.
have fun,
jerry
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Hrmmm...
Mark, how about a very large reversed style indirect style tank - the kind where the potable is in the coil. It may be able to do the same but without any pumps and in essence one extra tank where you are using two extra reservoirs.0 -
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Water harvesting and BTU haversting
This months JLC reports (according to the Albuqerque Journal) that all new commercial and residential projects in the Santa Fe jurisdiction, must capture and store all roof runoff. Store it in buried or insulated storage for irrigation water.
Residenses only have to capture 85%. Homes under 2500 sq ft can use rain barrels. Makes some sense to use the water from the sky instead of deep well pumping, storing, chlorinating and fluoridnation, (sp) then watering lawns!
ME, I think your plan plays into their thinking plan, somewhat. Conservation
Why not strip thr BTU's from the waste water before it hits the sewer. Heck you paid for that added energy.
Maybe the manhole covers would emit less odor with cooler effluent water! I noticed this walking the sidewalks of Vegas recently. Talk about a concentration of sewer gas!
Keep thinking out, or maybe, in the tank
Tanks a lot! Gears turning here in Missouri.
hot rod
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Jerry and Uni R....
Good idea Jerry. I may experiment with the L pipe. As for stratification tendencies, I think it will be whipping the water around so fast that it is more likely to be in a homogenous mix state as opposed to a stratafied state. Also, you will notice that the flow of fluids is counterflow. That is what they are looking for. It exacts the greatest exchange between the two fluids.
Uni, your idea would work, just not nearly as well as forced convection would. It would require a LARGE heat exchanger to work at the low temperatures that this system would see. In my case, I'd have 50 degree F water coming in, and at times only have 70 degree F water in the sump. At other times, it may be as great as 120 degrees F in the sump, but not always. Still useable energy, but poor transfer characteristics for natural convection at the low delta T.
Another problem would be the build up of "crud" in the tank. I've worked with open tank systems before and you'd be amazed at what gets built up inside of these babies. By keeping the water moving so violently with the sewage ejector pump, it would have a tendency to keep it cleaner. Time will tell...
Thanks to the both of you for your valid input.
ME0 -
Rain and re-use...
HR, interesting that you should mention that. I used to sit on the Mayor's Citizen Advisory Committee for the Denver Water Board. I made that suggestion back about 15 years ago when I sat on the Drought Managment Task Force. I was told that the water belonged to someone else, and my capturing it and releasing it slowly was in direct violation of their water rights. Heck, I even had plans to pump water out of the gutter in the street and send it to a holding tank for later use. I was told that once it hit a hard surface, i.e. roof or street, it belonged to the farmers and I was not to touch it.
Ain't that the pits!
ME0 -
Water flows to money
Having lived in the second driest State in the nation, I recall these battles. I too have been on several water committees, and homeowner associations fighting water wars.
Seems there is never enough water to supply currently built homes and businesses, then suddenly hihg rollers blow into town and two golf courses go in, with a thousand condos? Where did the additional water suddenly appear from?
Ah, the elusive "paper water" trick, again.
It was interesting to me that this rain water grab could get passed. Depends on who is downstream, I suppose. In the case of collecting, storing and irrigating, it still gets back into the aquifer I suppose, in the big scheme of things.
The battle of the largest cistern may get under way. Just like the deepest well and largest pump cashing in on these liquid assets.
Here is an interesting read you and Luann might enjoy. From the Holohan List
hot rod
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wrong way flow on the GFX
Mark,
Now I see what you did, and I don't think pumping the gray water up will work well.
When I first looked at the GFX, I was struck by what a brilliant and simple design they have. By getting the water to form a thin film over the entire surface, the heat exchanger surface area to water volume ratio is off the chart. That's how they can capture 50-75% of the waste heat energy in a single pass that lasts a second or two (they figure 4fps on the water falling through the pipe.)
So what I think you would want to do is to pump the gray water to the top of the GFX and keep the flow rate where it maintains the optimum film thinkness.
Also, if you have a pair of GFXs, I would run the incoming gray water through one and then recirculate in the second. Your best heat transfer is at max delta T, so you want to try to capture that before you mix it with colder water.
It's great dusting off my thermo after 25 years of not thinking about it. I'm having almost as much fun on the refrigerant side, trying to put something together that will get an SEER of 30 with a refrigerant/forced air system.
Dan, here's a brick from me. Having a place to talk about this stuff is priceless.
jerry
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Wrong way Goldfarb...
Jerry, with the heat exchanger being as conduction intense as it is, I don't think it really cares if there's a trickle running down the walls, or a torent surging through the pipe, it WILL transfer a butt load of btu's.
In reality, the only immediate transfer load that the surface film theory would really work with would be a shower. With a dish washer or clothes washer, when the hot drain water is going through the middle, there probably isn't any cold water going through the outsides of the HX anyway. With my design, it will transfer the BTU's regardless of whether drain and draw flows are simulaneous. Or so I think. As stated before, time will tell...
ME0 -
to funny!
here in vancouver, (which supposedly has enough water reserves within a hundred mile radius to quench the thirst of a ten million people), the city about 5 years ago SUBSIDIZED residential rainbarrels, that were built to hook-up to the downspout of homes!
what a crazy world!
leo g0 -
Also...
in order to comply with the intent of the plumbing code, the tank would have to have double walled HX'ers, and that will really suppress the transfer of BTU's.
Keep thinking outside the box tho... Your design would work excellently with a refrigerator or freezer though. The approach temperatures are much greater with a refrigerant system.
ME0 -
Old Vaughn VHX
ME have you ever seen the old original vaughn design? Simple, cheap and if you have the head room in the basement very easy to install. For shower and bath lav drains it should be required to conserve energy. Other than sill cocks and the kitchen sink where else do we really want water as cold as the street supply.0 -
Don't step on that!!!
Hot Rod,
Don't step on the man hole cover or you could be electricuted to death. Don't laugh it happened to a lady here walking her dog. She steped on a man hole cover for some wires and died instantly. Electricuted to death. Here in NYC if the muggers and the terrorists don't get ya maybe the manhole covers will. They tested a bunch of manhole covers and found about a dozen more lethal ones.
JR
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An attempt to provide ice free manhole
covers?
hot rod
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The Parts...
are on order. Should all be here within a month.
Stay tuned:-)
ME0 -
WHAT TH....?
What the ???? Oh, I get it, thanks for the acknowledgement. (Why do I feel kinda embarrassed?)
But if you're gonna name it after Tom's best freind, shouldn't it be named the Linda tank?
;-)0 -
irrigation
When I was in Cabo San Lucas a few years ago, I was told they held up on building some major hotels until the golf courses connected to them were ready to be built. The reason; all the grey water had to be used for irrigation.
al0 -
'scuse me...
best MALE friend... I stand (sit) corrected:-)
Good to see your typing!!
ME0 -
Thanks Mark...
I still stop in from time to time. Good brain food.0 -
It's a happening thing...
What a wonderful way to spend the weekend...
ME0
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