munchkin

Randy Tibbits

We replaced a 600 thou btu peerless with a 140m munchkin. The munchkin heats the building great. Two zones primary/secondary piping. The only thing that gets me is the high gas bill. I would have bet money that they would have saved at least 25 to 30 percent. They claim their gas bill is 125 dollars more this year for the month of january than it was last january. I would have to check the weather records but this january seems warmer than last jan. At least there was a lot more frozen pipes last year. They also claim their electic bill is up a hundred bucks. I've talked to my rep and he is going to come out and check it out. My rep and myself just can't beleive this. I feel like I let my customer down. This is a priority for monday.

munchkin-man

High gas usage can be caused by an improperly set unit

The flue gas should be checked for the levels of co ppm in the exhaust and if needed adjust the gas valve per mfg. specs. The venting termination should be checked to ensure there is no recirculation of the expelled flue gas. An inspection of all the connections and components should be checked. If a concentric vent was used check to ensure the center peice is installed and the end cap and center peice glued. If you suspect inlet air containation then measure for any levels of co coming in to the inlet vent. The gas pressure should be checked using a manometer to see what the inchs of water collum is and pressure drop when fird off. Never should it be over 14" and no more that 1/2" pressure drop when fired.

Mark Eatherton1

I have a feeling...

that your customers looking only at the $ amount and not the THERM amount. Natural gas around here has more than DOUBLED in cost.

Time will tell. Get copies of their bills and post them here for us to look at.

ME

Randy Tibbits

I'm going to check everything next week. I'm so shocked I wondered if they were pulling my leg. My rep is in a state of disbelief. The old boiler was wired up on constant fire, cycling on limit. I rewired the system so the munchkin only fires when a zone pump calls. I thought with that rewireing and the high efficiancy there would have been a tremendous difference. Next week will tell. thanks for the thoughts. By the way I delivered another munchkin today. I don't believe it's the equipment, but it's something.

R. Kalia

therms PER DEGREE-DAY

> that your customers looking only at the $ amount

> and not the THERM amount. Natural gas around here

> has more than DOUBLED in cost.

>

> Time will tell. Get copies of their bills and post

> them here for us to look at.


Many bills also contain the degree-days in the month, and if not, it can be obtained using data on wunderground.com. The relevant quantity is neither dollars not therms, but therms per degree-day.

jalcoplumb_2

Vision 1...

can add reset to the equasion and help a bit. What was the temp set for the old limit?

I had a customer with the same complaint and when all was said and done he was using about a 1/4 the therms that he did last year and the degree days were colder this year.

My response was imagine what the bill would have been had you not converted.

Keep us posted to what you find.

Joe

lchmb

just a note. I have had a similiar problem with a munchkin, if the unit is propane do a check of your second stage regulator. For some reason those unit's MUST run with a commercial grade regulator..otherwise they blow the diaphram and leak gas outside...no one notice's and get's very expensive...;) good luck
btw..it may happen with natural but I have never dealt with that product so can't answer...

Unknown

Jeff do you guys know

anything about this second stage regulator blowing problem? If so what would cause it to do that is it because the regulator is not far enough away from the unit????

To the best of my knowledge only excessive pressure will cause the internal relief to blow on a regulator that is unless the regulator is defective. Would perhaps the modulating of the Munchkin cause this to happen?

munchkin-man

The modulation of the Munchkin will not cause the reg tp blow

The main problem I have seen and heard of with the second stage reg is freezing if the first stage reg is letting the gas out of the tank to fast as liquid. This is at some -40 so it freezes any moisture in the second stage reg. Never saw a reg blow up from modulation. The reg being less than ten feet from the Munchkin can cause the flame to pulsate because the diaphram is moving up and down violently trying to stabelize. Hey Tim

Unknown

The second stage

regulator should not ever freeze as long as LP company uses methanol. In most cases LP companies mix methnaol with all of their deliveries. The diaphragm ruptering on a second stage regualor is a rare occurence as far as I know. If the second stage regulator is pulsating they need to use a differnt regulator (heavy duty) to prevent that from happening. Many times a different spring in the regulator will stop that no matter how close to the equipment.

mark_28

munchkin

Hang in there with that munchkin - it's a great product. Setting the throttle valve adjustment to the correct ppm of CO and flame conductivity reading can be a adventure but in the end, it's well worth it. The tech service guys are also great. Be wary of heating bill comparisons that do not specifically consider degree days and be sure you are looking at consumption, not price. "how cold is it" can be very subjective and prices /ccf are everywhere lately. Keep the faith. Real heating professionals are the last salvation of our occupation.

Joel_3

gas

gas prices go up considerably every year they sneak stuff into the bill like higher delivery charges plus they don't have enough gas to go around. Out here there are rumors of propane and compressed air being pumped into lines to keep the presure up in extreem cold. imagine what that would do to your bill. If you really want to save them money switch them to oil!!!! Almost 50% less money and your oil guy will actually care about you!

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ScottMP

Not as cold as last Year ?

I don't know where you are Randy , but here in Mass its beent the coldest January since 1918. These guys are right. check the therms used, not the price.

Scott

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lchmb

disagree

I hate to disagree..but I will..I have only dealt with a handfull of munchkin's but have found that if I do not use a commercial grade regulator capable of at least 3 million btu's. I will be returning to the unit within 6 month's to replace the second stage..as to the regulator freezing, I have replaced one in June and don't think it was frozen. The company I worked for methanoled the tank upon delivery and the delivery driver did his truckload each fill so I doubt that was the issue.. I like the idea behind the unit but have seen a number of problem's and yes the company has stood behind the unit but it make's it hard when the customer want's to know why it break's down so often...and no I am not knocking anyone..like I said..it has it's purpose's..and come's in handy sometimes...

Unknown

What make is the

second stage regulator that you are using? What is the model number and name of the one that fails? I would like to get in touch with the regulator manufacturer to find out what is going wrong with their regulator. I do a lot of work with LP gas folks and maybe one of them can give me an answer to why this is happeneing.

lchmb

rego

don't recall the model. Believe it was good for up to 600 thousand btu's... standard second stage backmount regulator...have gone to using commercial grade fisher's. Have not been back for that problem since then but have for other problem's...hope this helps'