Munchkin - Do I need Vision 1?

Tom Giedraitis

My new Munckin 140 with SuperStor 45 is finally done after numerous problems getting my contractor to show up, but unfortunately I'm afraid there's something missing. I wanted to get your suggestion on what to request.

First off, although I was told the boiler would be set up on outdoor reset, that apparently was not the case, as he simply used a TACO 4 Zone relay.

The big issue is, of course, the wife and kids with their use of the whirlpool tub. I got them all excited yesterday, that they would not have the hot water problems they have had in the past and next thing I know, my wife is screaming at me that there is no more hot water. I was able to turn up the temp on the indirect tank and seemed to satisfy the demand, but now I've got to put a tempering valve in. I can't understand why Mr Contractor didn't.

My question about Vision 1 is this. Say the primary loop temp setpoint for normal operation is 160, the way my boiler is now set up, it doesn't know why there is a call for heat so it's only going to get cranking to 160+diff before shutting off. If I'm calling for hot water I would want the indirect zone to go into priority and ramp up the primary loop temp to something more like 180 or 190 to satisfy the water heater (and the wife.)

Would the Vision 1 Control do that in addition to providing outdoor reset control?

I just want to get clear what I want and what it will do for me before I ask for it.

Is there another control system which would work similarly should I get pushback from my installer?

By the way, he did set up my radiant loop with a constant circ pump, but I don't understand why I would do that if I don't have outdoor reset modulating the loop temp.

Am I confused? Yes.

Jim Eastman

The Vision 1 addition is available if your contractor is Vision Certified. The Vision allows system temperature outdoor reset and priority domestic hot water production at full fire rate (in your case, the full 140k BTUH input). If your SuperStor is zoned with a zone valve instead of a circulator, there is a problem of incorporating the Vision module into the system. If your contractor is Vision Certified, he will have the piping and wiring diagrams to incorporate the outdoor reset and priority Domestic hot water production at the desired 180- 190 degrees.

Jim Eastman
Precision Plumbing
Boulder, CO

munchkin-man

The use of vision one is not the reason one uses primary pump

The primary pump is to overcome pressure drop produced by the Munchkins coils / heat exchanger. It allows the installer to select a pump based on our specs that will do just that. The seconsary pumps are designed to over come the pressure drop in each loop. The primary ensures the there is enough flow going through the Munchkin so it will not shot cycle or even worse flash the water in the coils to steam. The vision one piping is a bit different in that the indirect gets piped in before the primary so that the circulator used on the indirect serves two purposes and that is to supply the indirect and over come the pressure drop of the Munchkin. Vision one will allow you to blast the indirect at full rate and high temp to recover it quikley. This is a priority cycle and the central heating is disabled durring this cycle. When the indirect gets satified or reches the maximum time programed then the central heat side is allowed to operate and can be programed at a different temp based on the heating media it is to supply. Durring both of these cycles it will be modulating.

jalcoplumb_2

> First

> off, although I was told the boiler would be set

> up on outdoor reset, that apparently was not the

> case, as he simply used a TACO 4 Zone

> relay.


Are you sure you don't have vision 1? You can still have the reset and have a 4 zone relay.

> The big issue is, of course, the wife

> and kids with their use of the whirlpool tub. I

> got them all excited yesterday, that they would

> not have the hot water problems they have had in

> the past and next thing I know, my wife is

> screaming at me that there is no more hot water.

> I was able to turn up the temp on the indirect

> tank and seemed to satisfy the demand, but now

> I've got to put a tempering valve in. I can't

> understand why Mr Contractor didn't.

>

> My

> question about Vision 1 is this. Say the primary

> loop temp setpoint for normal operation is 160,

> the way my boiler is now set up, it doesn't know

> why there is a call for heat so it's only going

> to get cranking to 160+diff before shutting off.

With vision 1 The domestic call will overide the outdoor reset setting and run the munchkin full blast.

> If I'm calling for hot water I would want the

> indirect zone to go into priority and ramp up the

> primary loop temp to something more like 180 or

> 190 to satisfy the water heater (and the wife.)

> Would the Vision 1 Control do that in addition to

> providing outdoor reset control?

>


yes


&> Is there another

> control system which would work similarly should

> I get pushback from my installer?

>


Your the customer. You push back. If he is not vision certified he can take the class and come back and add the vision kit.

> By the way,

> he did set up my radiant loop with a constant

> circ pump, but I don't understand why I would do

> that if I don't have outdoor reset modulating the

> loop temp.

>


It will help keep the floor temp even with constant circulation even w/reset.



> Am I confused? Yes.

No, sounds like you know what you want.

Tom Giedraitis

Jeff,
Please elaborate a bit on your statement.
"The vision one piping is a bit different in that the indirect gets piped in before the primary so that the circulator used on the indirect serves two purposes and that is to supply the indirect and over come the pressure drop of the Munchkin"

Is this what sounds like a Parallel configuration, whereby in the summer months the primary circ is not even used? It sounds very logical, but I don't see (or at least recognize) it in the munchkin manual.
Sounds like the primary circ doesn't change size, but the indirect circ gets significantly bigger (I think it's a 008 now.)

The way my system is currently piped, is primary/secondary with closely spaced tees for the takeoffs to each secondary loop. Each Secondary loop has it's own pump. The tees serving supply and return to the superstor are the second ones pulled off the supply side of the primary loop.
Two photos are attached. They are pre completion, but the primary loop and water heater were piped in at the time they were taken.

As you can see, the primary pump is pulling directly from the boiler. I think it would need to be moved to set up the Parallel configuration which I think you are recommending.

Any further explanation/guidance you could give me to get the most out of this system and maximize water heater output would be appreciated.

Hope i don't have to ask for too many piping changes.

Thanks again

Tom Giedraitis

Thanks for your comments.
It definitely does not have the vision one kit. And in speaking to the supply house who recommended the installer, I found out that the installer had not been certified yet.

The supplier told me he would put an Vision One kit on order for me and get my installer into the class.

Out of curiosity, how long is the class? The guy is busy as heck, so I'm kind of afraid that he won't be willing to take the time until the work slows down again.

munchkin-man

Vision 1 class is an all day afair thats it

The way it is piped will work fine it is just that the indirect circ will have to work harder to over come the friction when going thorugh the primary pump. With the 008 you will be fine.