Tekmar w Peerless Pinnacle: mixing or boiler control?

R. Kalia

I got a reasonable quote to install Peerless Pinnacle (similar to Munchkin) with a Tekmar outdoor reset control.

They want to put in a 356 mixing control rather than a 256 boiler control. Text in proposal says "...When standard reset control is used with low mass modulating boiler, the resulting operation is far from ideal since it employs time modulation (on/off control) and ignores the fact that the heat source is capable of modulating the firing rate. Boiler short cycling during part load conditions occurs..."

I thought all boilers had on/off control via aquastats. A Tekmar boiler control would merely replace the aquastat.
Does the Pinnancle/Munchkin not have such an aquastat, using instead the control board, i.e. trying to put in a boiler control would mess up the way it modulates the burner?

With mixing control, the boiler water has to always be as hot as needed on the coldest day. Does that mean I won't get the full benefit of a condensing boiler...or is it only the return water temperature that matters, and that will be cooler due to mixing?

I talked to the guy and he says that mixing is the right way to go. He sounds like a knowledgable and expert installer, so I thought I would check here.

R. Kalia

by the way

PS I have another quote for the same system except they want to attach a boiler reset control (Tekmar 256) to the Pinnacle. Who is right?

Rudy

I am in the process of installing my first Pinnacle. Prior to purchasing, I was told by peerless that Tekmar is making a reset control specifically for this boiler. The new control is supposed to be available this spring. You may want to check with Peerless or Tekmar for exact dates. Hope this helps.

R. Kalia

how did we manage before the 'net?

Thank you, thank you, that was extremely useful info. I called Tekmar. The model numbers are 263 (one boiler) and 265 (three). The 263 is not out yet, while the 265 is, but in any case "the manufacturers are working on adapters to connect the 263/265 to the Peerless Pinnacle, WM Ultra, etc". I believe these Tekmars produce an analog output that the boiler needs to interpret as a modulation level. Best guess is some time next quarter. Maybe I'll wait; this should be simpler and better (and a little cheaper) than a mixing control for a simple radiator heating system.

jalcoplumb_2

why not go with ..

the vision 1 and a munchkin? It cost less than the pinnacle.

I have a munchkin pre vision 1 running with a tekmar 361 control controling a radiant slab w/buffer tank and the customer is very happy with the comfort of the room.

I also have a pinnacle with a 361 with great results.

I do like the vision system for the munchkin and I would like to see some indoor feedback via a indoor sensor, to adjust the reset curve but beggers can't be choosers.

R. Kalia

nope

> Why not go with the vision I and munchkin?

> It cost less than the pinnacle.


Nope. I brought up Munchkin prices in a post three weeks ago and set off quite a discussion, but the fact is, quoted prices make no sense at all.

I have 4 quotes now, 2 for the Munchkin w/VisionI and 2 for the Pinnacle w/Tekmar. The Peerless with Tekmar quotes are the highest and lowest, the highest being $1500 (about 25%) higher. The Munchkin quotes are in-between. They are mostly apples-to-apples although there are slight differences.

Some people strongly suggest that paying more gets you a better installation. I have no evidence of that so far. The lowest quote (the one I'm asking about in this thread) included a mixing valve and mixing circulator, making it a more complex installation. The highest quote was for a Pinnacle with Tekmar 256 boiler (on/off) control, which the lowest quote says is a bad thing to do to a modulating boiler.

Wayco Wayne_2

Why use an

outside control at all. Doesn't the Vision I control give you outdoor reset? Why not just use that? What am I missing? WW

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

jalcoplumb_2

> I got a reasonable quote to install Peerless

> Pinnacle (similar to Munchkin) with a Tekmar

> outdoor reset control.

>

> They want to put in a

> 356 mixing control rather than a 256 boiler

> control. Text in proposal says "...When standard

> reset control is used with low mass modulating

> boiler, the resulting operation is far from ideal

> since it employs time modulation (on/off control)

> and ignores the fact that the heat source is

> capable of modulating the firing rate. Boiler

> short cycling during part load conditions

> occurs..."

>

> I thought all boilers had on/off

> control via aquastats. A Tekmar boiler control

> would merely replace the aquastat. Does the

> Pinnancle/Munchkin not have such an aquastat,

> using instead the control board, i.e. trying to

> put in a boiler control would mess up the way it

> modulates the burner?

>

> With mixing control,

> the boiler water has to always be as hot as

> needed on the coldest day. Does that mean I

> won't get the full benefit of a condensing

> boiler...or is it only the return water

> temperature that matters, and that will be cooler

> due to mixing?

>

> I talked to the guy and he

> insists that mixing is the right way to go. In

> general he sounds like a knowledgable and expert

> installer, but there's a bit of a language

> problem, so I thought I would check here.

Cliff Brady

Did they tell you where it would

connect to. I was mulling that idea over in my head. I assume for pre-925 board it would have to snap over the variable resistor temperature control and connect to the solder pins on the back to produce the modulation effect. The pre-925 board design would have to allow changes to the target temperature while running instead going by the temp setting at 'bootup'. I assume all pinnacles are pre-925 boards and thus this is what the 263 wouold do. This is good news. Do you any other info?

jalcoplumb_2

256 not a

good option. I would rethink the 356. What type of system do you have?

R. Kalia

what you are missing

It is a Peerless Pinnacle, not a Munchkin.

R. Kalia

what tekmar told me...

Tekmar said the manufacturers were working on connectors/cables, that's all. I don't know the details. Also, if you are interested, it might be good to get Peerless's version of the story.

Yes, the Pinnacles have pre-925 boards. I read here that Peerless was working on a new board, but it makes a lot more sense for them to facilitate connections to an external unit made by people who have experience.

R. Kalia

pls explain

Why is the 256 (aquastat-replacement-type reset controller) not a good option? It seems I may have dodged a bullet by not going with the highest quote, which offered the 256, but I'm curious to know why.

We have a ~2500sf house with 2 zones (original 1920s house and 1990s extension) and a mixture of radiators and cast-iron baseboard in each zone. We'd need a 140KBTU Pinnacle/Munchkin (actually we only need 100KBTU but they don't make one that size).

jalcoplumb_2

i would

try to get a munchkin w/ vision 1. I hope you got my e-mail. The system I just installed had radiators and is working like a dream w/ vision 1.

The 256 control will not allow the munchkin to modulate properly. You might as well put in a standard boiler w/ this control.

The Vision system will work the best by allowing the boiler to modulate and give you reset.

With tekmar I would reset the system temp. and let the pinnacle modulate by itself.

Are both zones going to be run at the same temp? The old zone might be better at a lower temp than the new zone. Most radiators were oversized. Was the new zone sized to a heat loss or was it put in long ago and also oversized?

What were the reasons for zoning? Do you use a setback thermostat?

R. Kalia

reply

> try to get a munchkin w/ vision 1. I hope you

> got my e-mail.


Sorry, while the e-mail address I post publicly works, I generally don't check it since it is a spam magnet.

I would love to get a Munchkin, but according to the local rep there are only 2 contractors in the area. One quoted a very high price; the other was reasonably priced but he knew much less about Munchkins than I did. I have been trying to find an acceptable Munchkin quote for some time. Only after failing in this effort did I contact Peerless.

> The 256 control will not allow the

> munchkin to modulate properly. You might as well

> put in a standard boiler w/ this control.


Ok, thanks for confirming!

> Are both zones going to be run at the same temp?

> The old zonemight be better at a lower temp than

> the new zone. Most radiators were oversized.


You are absolutely correct. I don't know what to do about it that won't cost more money than it's worth. I figure
we'll set the reset curve for the new zone. Then the water will be slightly too hot for the old zone, so the old zone won't run all the time (the thermostat will stop the zone pump). But this will have the minor advantage that we can use nighttime setback in the old zone; since the water is slightly too hot, we'll get a reasonable recovery time.

Suggestions on how to do this better are appreciated.

> Was the

> new zone sized to a heat loss or was it put in

> long ago and also oversized?


New zone is properly sized. It was put in in 1992.

> What were the reasons for zoning?


We have been in the house for only five months, so I don't know. But simply combining the zones now won't work for reasons given above.

jalcoplumb_2

I would love...

to talk to you on the phone.

609.304.9749

or e-mail your number and I will call you.