Buy American Boilers and Hydronic Equipment

Justin Gavin

Just a thought.

I know I will catch some slack but there was another thread about organizing a radiant organization that promotes radiant installations and hydronics.

I also see alot of threads about marketing hydronics.

I also see alot of very nice installations throughout this site. I also see alot of recommendations to use the European Type Boilers and Equipment.

Yes I will concur that the Europeans are at the forefront of technology when it comes to Hydronics. They have taught us much due to there economy.

I have this to say. In regards to the current economy, we all want to offer our customers the best equipment at a price that is fair.

I have this challenge to offer to those of you who are stuck on Viessman, Buderus and others. While you promote these boilers and their related equipment you are really hurting your fellow Americans.

I don't know why with all the anti-american attitudes that they have there you guys can still continue to promote their products. Whatever happened to "Buy American". Every boiler you buy affects the economy in a negative way. Think about this for a second.

1. Europeans ship out their units to the US
2. The Wholesaler gets screwed because of the dollar is "weak" vs. the Euro.
3. The Wholesaler sells the boiler at a lower margin to remain as competative as he can.
4. Now you get the boiler and now you are at a disadvantage because your price is higher.
5. The end-user gets hit because now he is paying for a system that is higher in price than an American Made boiler that can perform the same function with very comparable efficiencies.

What happened to the pride of being American? Has anyone noticed the economy lately? Have you noticed all the companies moving South or to China because its cheaper for them to do business over there?

Why put Americans out of work to purchase from countries that think we are "piggish", "ignorant", "uneducated".
I know sometimes you don't have a choice, especially when you are looking at things like TV's and stereos.

But in this instance we do have a choice!

I say that the boiler manufacturers are somewhat at fault. They let it get this far. To this point. Now they are playing catch up. Why they don't add more insulation to the outside of their boilers I still don't know. That seems to be the quickest and easist. We have to support this catch up to promote their R & D departments. So they can improve on their products. Maybe they are content. Or Maybe they are too worried about bringing their prices down to be competative that they forego all the little nice things that we want.

Is it really worth an extra $400-$1200 for a boiler to gain and extra 2-3 % on I=B=R ratings. What does that add up to? Not that much. Not enough to justify the added cost. Even when you go up against a Condensing Boiler like a Munchking (heat exchanger made in Europe, France I believe) The savings where I live (Green Bay, WI) is only about $125-$150 a month. It will take you 8-10 years to get payback on these units. And what happens when they fail (if they fail) in the first 10 years. You guys are putting these things in like candy because they seem neat, they modulate, they are light, Easy to work with and install, Easy controls, but that doesn't mean a whole lot when in 8 years it is toast. At that point you will never get your payback.

Those passes are pretty tight around that coil. Have you ever seen the burner after 16 months? Not a pretty site. Do you really think your homeowner is going to be happy replacing an 8 year old boiler that is supposed to be the cats meow? Especially if they owned a boiler that lasted 30 years before you replaced it.

I think its time we all took a step back and really took a look at what we are doing to help our country. The best damn country in the world. The country that offers everyone the opportunity to excel. Help out your fellow brother at the mill. The same guy that takes time to look at your castings, or your copper fin tubes, or whatever you are into and keep him working.

The call is up to the boiler manufacturers now to create something different and more efficient at an affordable price.

I know I will probably catch flak for this e-mail because alot of you praise your viessmans, and your buderus'. They have nice features I admit but lets get with the program and support the local companies.

How many times have you said to yourself "Why are we sending millions of dollars over "there" when we have people starving in our streets?"

Well than why are you sending thousands of dollars over there when you could do everyone a favor and buy local.

Think about it long & hard and do something about it.

The Germans and the French don't want to support us even after we saved ones **** and kicked the other's. Why should their employess go home satisfied while ours are getting laid off.

Its not just the plants that suffer. Its the long chain of commerce that follow. The Mom & Pop Cafe that serves food at lunch, Its the miners and junkyards that suffer when there prices go down or they layoff employess because their is no demand for their materials. Its the homeowner who is on the fence between a FA system and a High End hydronics system who decides to pick the FA system because you piped your self out of a job.

Sorry I had to vent, but every time I read a paper or listen to the news another company shuts down or lays people off, or worse yet moves to Mexico or something like that. It sickens me because everyone of those people that lose their job is another customer turned off from the added cost of a hydronic system.

If you are currently promoting European Technology as your base bids, slow down taeke a minute or two and think about what makes this country great and look at what We in America have to offer and last but not least buy American!

JG

Arthur

Tend to agree with you

But I wasn't the one who said the europeans were lazy in the first place. I think it when something like this
'When I think of Europeans I think of lazyness' Or some thing simalar.
Yes there are hard workers in every race so why label Europeans as lazy??

DanHolohan

Please

tell us about the heating systems in New Zealand. I want to learn.

Thanks.

Arthur

NZ Heating systems

Not sure were to start, Back prior to 1973 most Domestic systems were oilfired hot air using locally made furnaces, Well when I first started in the trade in 64 we did put a few GM Delco units but then the local firms got going and we had to use them because of import restrictions.
Schools would be the biggest in low pressure hot water system we tend to follow the English European way of doing things. Pumps on return etc.I've only ever seen one steam system and this when I first started back in 64 in a big department store in Invercargill in the deep south.In the early days almost every school had a coal fired underfeed stoker. Then in the late 60's and early 70 Natural Gas became available (North Island only). By the late 70 right though to now converstions are still happening.
We have 2/3 local firms making boiler mostly over the 100kw size these can be used for gas oil.These are reverse flame type horizonal boilers. The smaller boilers tend to be inported Pensotti,Ferroli etc.
In 1973 the Arabs got in on the deal and the price of oil sky rocketed so the oil furnaces died overnight. A couple of the furnace co got into gas furnaces but then when import restriction were lifted in the mid 80's Aussie furnaces took over.A lot of domestic then went to solid fuel burners but this faze has died down over the years although there is still a couple firms making the heaters.
NZ climate is not as severe as you have in the US, Here in Auckland North NZ the temperature sedldom get below 10 deg c
(say 55F) Down south and in the middle of the north Island it can get colder and snow but not usually for long periods.
Domestic Hot water systems are done but not very often I would only do about 2/3 a year most of my work is school alterations, with some gas fired/oil fired maintenance.
I've just finished a wall hung gas boiler install, and in the middle of a gas wall hung radiant/radiator install large house almost 12 months in the building.
Oil is now starting to get competive again approx cost are
Nat gas cost 5-6cents kw, into the room @ 80% eff = 6-7c kw
Oil (diesel)60-70c/litre,into the room @ 80%ef = 7.2c-85c kw
Lpg cost $65/45kg into the room at 80%eff = 10ckw
Electricity 11/12c kw
Heat pump say 2.5 ratio = approx 5ckw.
LPG is getting very popular. The Indians & Asians love it for cooking were there is no Nat gas.
thermostatic Radiator valves are getting very popular too almost every school alteration have them on the alterations
A local nz firm makes radiators these are made from 70mm x 10mm hst welded into a header at each end, These Econorads sare really solid rads practically indestructable great for schools.
There are imported rads available too about 1/2 the cost not so durable Ferroli and Roca are too.
When I started in the trade we use a lot of Cast iron english Rads & Boilers, Ideal,Robin Hood,Crane, Then a local firm started making pressed steel rads and had the market for just on 20yrs untill another company got the licence tomake the Arbonia rads which later evolved into the Econorads.
At present the furnaces available are the US Lennox, the Aussie Braemar & Vulcan, and the ? Brevis,
As general rule of the thumb the higher the capital cost of installation the less expensive to in running cost and of course the reverse also.
We don't use this primary/secondary as you use it, Our ones are just a complete pipe from the boiler back to the boiler with a pump and and flow & return pumped from and to that.
I'm afraid I don't understand you injection system.
Guess you have some questions by all means fire them back
Cheers

DanHolohan

Thanks for sharing that.

I'm curious about how you folks buy your equipment. Do you have wholesalers, as we do in the US, or do you deal with the manufacturers or their agents directly?

Also, how do you advertise your services?

Thanks for the education!

Arthur

Buying Equipment

As far as the NZ made Equipment we buy direct from the manufacturer, Energy Products International would have to be the biggest firm in NZ. With the biggest range they make the Boilers,Radiators and a lot of other gear as well. But they also import boilers like the Immergas,Pensotti,Bongioanni,And Rad valves, Heimeier,Wilo Circulating pumps,Elco/Cuenod Burners,Lennox & Braemar gas furnaces,Sinko Fan coil units,Unipipe(pex)pipe,Flexlen underground piping system and a host of other gear as well, They also make the insulated Flue system too (thats a double flue with vermiculate insulation approx 2" alround).
Incidentally they were taken over by Tyco an American conpany about 4 years ago. Tyco has taken over quite a few companies here in NZ in the last few years.
There are other firms who make or import gear but on such as bigger scale as them I sometimes buy a bit of stuff from them but not like I do from EPI.
One other firm is Waterware who import the Ferroli range of boilers,rads,Fan coil units, and another pex pipe (Pexal)they are also into bathroom taps etc. Their Pexal pipe is approved for gas use too.
I should have said that most of our work on school and commerical buildings is done with black medium pipe welded fittings except in places were it's not practical to weld.
Here in NZ the gasfitters have to be registered and certify every job with the possibility of an audit every 20 installation which hasn't got off the ground yet.
Every gasfietter will have to do 20 hrs upgrading every 2 yrs to maintain his registation.
Oil heaters there is no requirement for any licence or cert any Tom, ****,or Harry can install them.
We are desperately short of just about all tradesmen in NZ.
Carpenters, Electrians, painters,gasfitters,plumbers HVAC,Etc.
So if you want to get away from the northern winter come om down, I have a couple of friends who swap your winter for our summer and our winter for your summer.
Cheers.