Steam Vapor ?

jim lockard

vapor steam system Pulled the air elimanation off installed hoffman 75 at end of dry returns. Pulled 1 main trap. have air venting at removed and open main trap. When I break the union for the dry return and I get water no air that i can feel? checked the level and level with slight pitch toward boiler. Have water in dry returns 2 1gallon buckets worth Rads will still not heat all the way across. Pulled trap a the largest rad still not heating all the way. What are the simple answers? Thanks J. Lockard

Ken_8

Drop the

pressuretrol setting to half a pound.

Boiler water's backing up into the system.

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john_27

Ken's right...

but, your air eliminator must go back on the system....hoffman 75's vent 1.5 cfm...not enough to get the air out of your main vents fast...I have 5 Gorton "2's(5.5 cfm) on my system, and still isn't enough...if you post the length and diameter of your mains in this thread, others more knowledgeable than I can give you proper vent sizing...john

jim lockard

I broke the 1\" union at for dry return at boiler

Still nothing customer complain this system has not worked properly in years. they wanted to rip out and install forced air?

Steamhead

They're out of their minds

to even consider scorched-air. That system can be fixed, and when it runs properly it will give superior comfort.

Is there any evidence of steam in that dry return?

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jim lockard

Steamhead

Well then help me get it right. No steam in dry returns just water end of steam mains are hot to traps pulled one main trap steam is venting out long rad on 1st floor trap has been pulled last week by others Rad will not get hot all the way across. ?? if the main traps are working and I open the dry return should not I get air venting ??why do I have water in the dry returns does it belong there??. Thanks in advance J.Lockard

[Deleted User]

the dry returns arn't dry,

they are just called dry returns cause they are above the boilers waterline..in order to differentiate them from the wet returns which are below the boilers waterline..when the system is running they drain the water thats condensed in the radiators..so yes they are supposed to drain water..and also vent the air...double duty...but there should never be steam in the dry return....

Mad Dog

Ken could be on to it.......................

get pressure real low first. But you have to better on the venting: a battery of Gorton #2s will do. I put in 13 in a Gold Coast Mansion last year, cut heating bills by 60%!!!!!!!are the original check valves in place? They could be clogged and condensate is backing up. We will walk you thru it. Between us, we have restored 100s of old vapor systems. Give us pics and more details. Mad Dog

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jim lockard

Simmering

Yesterday I removed the air elimanater and installed a 75 hoffman at the boiler in the dry return I also opened the 1" dry return union. not a lot of air coming out, the Rads are not hot all the way across. The boiler has been down fired 3 burners on the left and right outside have been capped. Could It be that the boiler is not making enough steam and it is condensing in the Rads before they are filled. If this is true why is the boiler turning off (plus short cycling)When I opened the trap on the 1st floor Rad should not steam be pouring out?
I have the H.O. Measureing the Rads and counting sections so that I can figure total Radation in the home. Thanks in advance J.Lockard

jim lockard

john

I opened the dry return 1" ipe common to two 3/4 dry returns coming back. I pulled the trap on the longest rad steam should be pouring out ? J.Lockard

Steamhead

Jim, where is the job located

and how cold is it there? If it's not that cold the rads don't need to heat fully to keep the house warm.

It's possible you have a blocked wet (below the waterline) return. If this is true, returning water will back up. Also look for and clean any check valves as mentioned above.

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jim lockard

Location

IN the heart of Winchester,Va. There Is very little Steam here some one pipe 1st vapor I have seen in Winchester. I got involved as a refer. to (your gona hate this rip it out and install a split system Heat Pump because they gave up trying to find some one to fix it and the gas bill is off the hook.) So now I am trying to fix it. Thanks J.Lockard

Steamhead

Jim, I'm in Baltimore

and can make the trip to Winchester if you need help. E-mail me if you're interested.

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jim lockard

Customer called

Its currently 33 degrees here the boiler ran for 55 min. to raise the house temp 2 degrees. I have a list of all the Rads will post shortly. Oh the boiler is 360 Mbtu Burnham that has been down fired J.Lockard

[Deleted User]

why was it downfired?

do the problems go away when its firing rate is set at the lable plate?

jim lockard

Gerry

Some local plumber maybe felt the boiler was too oversized. I worked up the square footage on the Rads and came up with this. 657 Square feet x1.5 (dan's number)x 240 btu per sq.ft.=237,000 Btus (Gross) The present boiler is a burnham# 604 Rated at 360,000 Btu's. Currently 1/2 the burners are capped off (downfired) Customer said today it took 55 min. to raise the house tempture 2 degrees 33degree outside temp. (new t-stat in place Yo/Yo) I think boiler is simmering (may have other problems) If I get all the burners firing correctly would that be ok?? (may be a little overfired (correct later if I have to) I will replace the pressurtrol with a vapor stat set at 4oz/8oz. Thanks In Advance J.Lockard

[Deleted User]

i would-

i had one like that last year..new people in a big house..couldn't get all the radiators hot..looked at old boiler, and several burners were turned off..we turned them back on and what do you know,,heat..the dead men actually sized it right after all, ..i figured the previuos owner was trying to save money..also- have you flooded the boiler to make sure it doesn't have a hole in it?

Steamhead

I e-mailed this to Jim

but thought it should go here on the Wall too.

Jim, I looked up the 604 and I believe you have found the problem. The 604 is rated 900 square feet of radiation which includes a 33% pickup factor. With half the burners plugged it might only be good for 450 square feet or a bit less. Since you have 657 square feet of radiation, it's easy to see what's wrong. You're not making enough steam!

The first thing to do is reassemble all the burners and orifices so they are operational. Test it with your digital analyzer to make sure it's burning properly. If the boiler then short-cycles, a slight down-firing might be in order. But I wouldn't go below 20% or so, which would be an input of 288,000 BTUH.

This makes me wonder why the boiler was so severely down-fired in the first place. I'll bet there were problems somewhere else in the system such as banging, and some idiot down-fired it as a Band-Aid solution. Be ready for something like this when you restore all the burners- and if you run into any more problems you know where to turn.

If the owners ask about ways to reduce their gas consumption, I have found that steam pipe insulation works very well if it's not already there. On an atmospheric gas boiler which I think the 604 is, an electric stack damper will keep the boiler from cooling down so much between firing cycles- especially since it's probably hooked up to a powerful old chimney designed for pulling air thru a coal bed. Also, once the boiler is firing to capacity make sure no steam is getting into the dry return.

The Vaporstat is a very good idea. But it may make the boiler short-cycle a bit more- slight down-firing as mentioned above would help here.

Let us know how you do.


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