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Ergomax For Radiant...Thanks to The Wall
PJO_5
Member Posts: 199
Wallies,
I wanted to post this for a while now, and finally am getting around to it. It may be of interest to some...
In September, after waiting for two years, we had the addition done above the garage (600 sq ft). While contemplating adding the zone of heat to my current mix of radiant and baseboard, I also decided to re-do all the piping in the boiler room. I owe all of this knowledge to the fine folks here at The Wall.
Old system - installed by yours truly w/ two techs;
1) Cast iron, oil-fired direct vent boiler (Dunkirk Ultimate 4 section) with a by-pass for the radiant return to the mixing valve to "help" with boiler protection. Pumping into the boiler w/ exp. tank after...I actually argued with the tech. without knowing about the benefits of pumping away (I didn't see the Wall in spring of '98). No primary/secondary pumping. Started w/ 1.00 gph nozzle and took it down to 0.75 with the blessing of the Wallies and Dunkirk. My very first posting was to ask that question and (I believe) Jalco Plumbing helped me...had to change to a smaller (F6) air intake, etc.
2) Three zones of radiant; two staple-up w/plates under the first floor, and a third zone in the garage slab. Two baseboard zones upstairs. Total load on boiler about 95,000 btuh according to the Slant/Fin calcs...the heatloss calc. given to me from the builder's contractor (Manual J I believe) was 115,000 btuh...without the garage.
3) I told management we would have to do improvements in the near future when the money was available. This included better protection for the boiler, and other items which I learned about from the Wall.
4) I found out soon about why you shouldn't buy non-barrier tubing. After the first season, while the system worked fairly well it did show signs of iron/rust, etc.
After getting edumacated over time, I decided to re-do it all.
I had a boiler that short-cycled and IMHO was not protected well enough from cool return temps. I also needed a heat exchanger to separate my boiler and non-barrier tubing. I also was adding an additional zone...first it was going to be radiant, then management rejected Euro radiators :-( then it was decided to match the baseboard in the rest of the second floor.
It took about six weeks for all of the work. I drove my tech (Glenn) crazy for a bit, then finished the work with my brother Mike. Here it is;
1) Primary/Secondary piping, mostly 1 1/4", with a 007 primary pump. It runs right through an Ergomax E-23 (26 gallons of boiler water), then back to the boiler. First zone is the master bedroom area baseboard (175F design @ 15,000 btuh), then kids rooms and bath baseboard (170F design @ 22,000 btuh), the new addition baseboard (160F design, 15,000 btuh), then the Ergomax for the three radiant zones...about 58,000 btuh total with the garage as a sacrificial zone just in case :-)
I installed a 1 1/4" ESBE mixing valve with manual adjustment, because I'm a tinkerer and will be re-setting the radiant temps myself. Pumping away from the expansion tank with a spirovent was a must...works like a champ. Every time I adjust the mix, I hear a tiny little "spit" from the vent a crack a little smile thinking of all you Wallies!
2) My baseboard uses three 007's and I ripped out the previous 2 B&G 100's. Sorry B&G, but when I had to replace a set of bearings after two years and paid much more for those pumps I just couldn't see the point. My radiant is three zone valves with a Grunfos 1542-S (SS for the non-barrier tube). While I added a zone of heat and a primary pump, I will use a little less electricity...plus I didn't have to buy three flow checks.
The new area has 160F design baseboard with pex (barrier!) tubing to feed it...quiet as a mouse with the liners in the stud holes thanks to The Wall. I ran two lengths of 1/2" (off the 3/4" copper manifold) about 150 ft. each...the response is very quick, and the temp. drop is minimal for each leg.
3) I put valves in for future zones of bathroom floor heat upstairs, and a supplemental radiant zone for the family room...I'd like to heat some of the walls someday, and am still working towards management approval. I have temp. gauges on the boiler feed, two baseboard returns, radiant feed and one return, and boiler return. This helps me monitor every important checkpoint in the system. I also have a digital flowmeter on my biggest radiant zone...a bit of overkill I guess, but I know exactly the btu's that are used there, and it looks pretty cool :-)
Overall, the system is such an improvement in many ways.
First and foremost, the boiler cycling is excellent...as with many areas around here, we have hit design conditions pretty often lately, and I have timed runs of 90 minutes during the late evening. I can imagine the thing almost ran all night on the two occasions it hit zero degrees. The "off" cycle is much longer as well as long as the temps. are reasonable.
The second benefit is better boiler protection. It rarely falls below 135F return, and mostly it stays in the 140 to 145F range.
Third, the flow to the zones is better. There is no way of knowing, but I am guessing the new mixing valve has much better flow through it than the older Sparcomatic with the old flow set-up.
All this is done to a house that now has about 110,000 btuh at design temps of 10F. We have been below that for consecutive days at a time, and the house is still comfortable...and my boiler output is about 105,000 btuh. Adds to the theory of ME's heatloss calculation comments.
My domestic comes from a tankless coil, which feeds to a 50 gallon electric HWH that's hooked to an off-peak meter. I have seen the boiler feed temp. reduce eight degrees after 30 minutes of constant draw to the hot tub and two consecutive showers while the zones are calling...a slight "dip" for the heating but not too shabby. It could be better...maybe I'll add an Ergo for that :-)
Other things I did because of the wall; 1" flowchecks on my 3/4" baseboard lines, a swing check added to my baseboard returns, pulling away from the mixing valve (boy was I stupid!), installing a low water cut-off, and manipulating my programmed thermostats as need to approach constant circulation at design temps.
I have taken "before" and "after" pictures, but need to convert them to a CD. That has been added to my "honey-do" list. I need to get a digital camera!
Future work includes some solar (someday), and the future zones mentioned earlier.
Again, none of this was done without the wonderful education of The Wall. I can't name everyone, but HR got me thinking on the Ergomax with his indirect for radiant. Various guys mentioned the up-sized flow checks. I wish it was as pretty as heatboy's stuff, but it doesn't hold a candle to that and other fine work I see posted here.
Of course, Dan the Man is to thank the most for all of this...
Thanks again from this H.O.
Take Care, PJO
I wanted to post this for a while now, and finally am getting around to it. It may be of interest to some...
In September, after waiting for two years, we had the addition done above the garage (600 sq ft). While contemplating adding the zone of heat to my current mix of radiant and baseboard, I also decided to re-do all the piping in the boiler room. I owe all of this knowledge to the fine folks here at The Wall.
Old system - installed by yours truly w/ two techs;
1) Cast iron, oil-fired direct vent boiler (Dunkirk Ultimate 4 section) with a by-pass for the radiant return to the mixing valve to "help" with boiler protection. Pumping into the boiler w/ exp. tank after...I actually argued with the tech. without knowing about the benefits of pumping away (I didn't see the Wall in spring of '98). No primary/secondary pumping. Started w/ 1.00 gph nozzle and took it down to 0.75 with the blessing of the Wallies and Dunkirk. My very first posting was to ask that question and (I believe) Jalco Plumbing helped me...had to change to a smaller (F6) air intake, etc.
2) Three zones of radiant; two staple-up w/plates under the first floor, and a third zone in the garage slab. Two baseboard zones upstairs. Total load on boiler about 95,000 btuh according to the Slant/Fin calcs...the heatloss calc. given to me from the builder's contractor (Manual J I believe) was 115,000 btuh...without the garage.
3) I told management we would have to do improvements in the near future when the money was available. This included better protection for the boiler, and other items which I learned about from the Wall.
4) I found out soon about why you shouldn't buy non-barrier tubing. After the first season, while the system worked fairly well it did show signs of iron/rust, etc.
After getting edumacated over time, I decided to re-do it all.
I had a boiler that short-cycled and IMHO was not protected well enough from cool return temps. I also needed a heat exchanger to separate my boiler and non-barrier tubing. I also was adding an additional zone...first it was going to be radiant, then management rejected Euro radiators :-( then it was decided to match the baseboard in the rest of the second floor.
It took about six weeks for all of the work. I drove my tech (Glenn) crazy for a bit, then finished the work with my brother Mike. Here it is;
1) Primary/Secondary piping, mostly 1 1/4", with a 007 primary pump. It runs right through an Ergomax E-23 (26 gallons of boiler water), then back to the boiler. First zone is the master bedroom area baseboard (175F design @ 15,000 btuh), then kids rooms and bath baseboard (170F design @ 22,000 btuh), the new addition baseboard (160F design, 15,000 btuh), then the Ergomax for the three radiant zones...about 58,000 btuh total with the garage as a sacrificial zone just in case :-)
I installed a 1 1/4" ESBE mixing valve with manual adjustment, because I'm a tinkerer and will be re-setting the radiant temps myself. Pumping away from the expansion tank with a spirovent was a must...works like a champ. Every time I adjust the mix, I hear a tiny little "spit" from the vent a crack a little smile thinking of all you Wallies!
2) My baseboard uses three 007's and I ripped out the previous 2 B&G 100's. Sorry B&G, but when I had to replace a set of bearings after two years and paid much more for those pumps I just couldn't see the point. My radiant is three zone valves with a Grunfos 1542-S (SS for the non-barrier tube). While I added a zone of heat and a primary pump, I will use a little less electricity...plus I didn't have to buy three flow checks.
The new area has 160F design baseboard with pex (barrier!) tubing to feed it...quiet as a mouse with the liners in the stud holes thanks to The Wall. I ran two lengths of 1/2" (off the 3/4" copper manifold) about 150 ft. each...the response is very quick, and the temp. drop is minimal for each leg.
3) I put valves in for future zones of bathroom floor heat upstairs, and a supplemental radiant zone for the family room...I'd like to heat some of the walls someday, and am still working towards management approval. I have temp. gauges on the boiler feed, two baseboard returns, radiant feed and one return, and boiler return. This helps me monitor every important checkpoint in the system. I also have a digital flowmeter on my biggest radiant zone...a bit of overkill I guess, but I know exactly the btu's that are used there, and it looks pretty cool :-)
Overall, the system is such an improvement in many ways.
First and foremost, the boiler cycling is excellent...as with many areas around here, we have hit design conditions pretty often lately, and I have timed runs of 90 minutes during the late evening. I can imagine the thing almost ran all night on the two occasions it hit zero degrees. The "off" cycle is much longer as well as long as the temps. are reasonable.
The second benefit is better boiler protection. It rarely falls below 135F return, and mostly it stays in the 140 to 145F range.
Third, the flow to the zones is better. There is no way of knowing, but I am guessing the new mixing valve has much better flow through it than the older Sparcomatic with the old flow set-up.
All this is done to a house that now has about 110,000 btuh at design temps of 10F. We have been below that for consecutive days at a time, and the house is still comfortable...and my boiler output is about 105,000 btuh. Adds to the theory of ME's heatloss calculation comments.
My domestic comes from a tankless coil, which feeds to a 50 gallon electric HWH that's hooked to an off-peak meter. I have seen the boiler feed temp. reduce eight degrees after 30 minutes of constant draw to the hot tub and two consecutive showers while the zones are calling...a slight "dip" for the heating but not too shabby. It could be better...maybe I'll add an Ergo for that :-)
Other things I did because of the wall; 1" flowchecks on my 3/4" baseboard lines, a swing check added to my baseboard returns, pulling away from the mixing valve (boy was I stupid!), installing a low water cut-off, and manipulating my programmed thermostats as need to approach constant circulation at design temps.
I have taken "before" and "after" pictures, but need to convert them to a CD. That has been added to my "honey-do" list. I need to get a digital camera!
Future work includes some solar (someday), and the future zones mentioned earlier.
Again, none of this was done without the wonderful education of The Wall. I can't name everyone, but HR got me thinking on the Ergomax with his indirect for radiant. Various guys mentioned the up-sized flow checks. I wish it was as pretty as heatboy's stuff, but it doesn't hold a candle to that and other fine work I see posted here.
Of course, Dan the Man is to thank the most for all of this...
Thanks again from this H.O.
Take Care, PJO
0
Comments
-
Geeze Louise!
You have put some serious thought into that design. I need to hire you to do my designs
Glad to hear you , and your home, are happy and warm.
hot rod
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Thanks...
HR, it would be both a pleasure and a privilege to design for you or any other Wallies.
Of course, it took 16,000 hours to think of it...not including Wall "edumacation" time :-)
Take Care, PJO
0
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