Oil vs. Propane???

Jack_23

Oil is great heat but the differences between the btu factor is substantially madeup by the advantage of being able to precisely modulate the gas burner to the demand/load. I've been working with modulating gas equip since 91 and have seen many instances where switching from single stage to Mod showed savings of up to 35-40% on gas to gas. Oils biggest problem is the lack of modulating burner technology. As to costs, buy a large LP tank and bury it. Time your buys to market price thru storage vol. Oil will limit to 660 gal in a residence. You can get much larger gas tanks.

Dak

Oil vs Propane fuel radiant?

Just like the opinions of some of the pros out there or homeowners who have experience. For a new radiant floor system would you recommend oil or propane as the fuel source. Natural gas is not available in our area. Can you give some reasons why.
thanks.

S Davis

Oil is the way to go, you get 140,000 BTU out of a gallon of oil and 90,000 BTU out of a gallon of propane.
The price per gallon is pretty close and usally propane spikes a lot higher, also depending on your oil tank size you can buy fuel in the off season when it is cheaper.
You will probably pay a little more on the install for oil but you will make that back on your fuel bill,you will need to get a yearly service with oil,but you should get propane equipment serviced yearly also, however a lot of people don't.
I would look for a contractor that not only installs oil but services it also and get references.

S Davis

Joe_13

If you're anywhere on the East Coast, usually oil is a better deal and you have more dealers to shop around for. Don't forget the safety factor of oil: oil homes don't blow up. LP can be a greater danger then nat gas since it's heavy and will sink to the basement floor waiting for the first spark.

heatboy

I've switched.........

almost all of my radiant projects where there is no natural gas from fuel oil to propane. The reason is simple........Vitodens. This boiler is so good that the efficiencies of the Vitodens more than make up for the BTUH difference in the two fuels. I won't use any other boiler for propane, though.

If the system utilizes water temperatures low enough for condensing equipment then my choice is the Vitodens with propane. With a more or less standard higher temperature system, fuel oil would be my choice.

hb

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munchkin-man

The Munchkin is at 92% eff. oil at its very best is at 85%

See us under the manfacture listing and see the job installs on our web page.

scrook_2

Oil vs Propane prices

See:
http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/data_publications/weekly_petroleum_status_report/current/pdf/tablec3.pdf
and:
http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/data_publications/weekly_petroleum_status_report/current/pdf/tablec1.pdf

for current pricing by region. Multiply the propane prices by ~1.5 to get equivalent BTU content prices. Note too, oil will be 2-3% points higher in efficency (say 85% vs 82%) than propane in conventional, non condensing equipment, condensing propane (or NG) equipment may get well over 90% if you can run at low temperatures.

My vote in the N.E. would be for oil over propane, but note that with propane you can run gas dryers and gas stoves too, so if you prefer cooking w/ gas and/or local electric rates are high propane becomes less unattractive.

Storage is another issue, propane will need to be outside (a large "torpedo" tank, or at least a 420 lb fat bottle -- bigger than the 100lb silver cyl's) Oil really should be inside (cellar), it can be outside but at very cold temperatures waxing of the oil becomes an issue, and kerosene (#1) or #1/#2 blend vs heating oil (#2) becomes the fuel of choice, but it is more expensive, slightly lower BTU ~134,000/gal) and harder to get.

In short, "It Depends"

AKO

Respectfully disagree

I have no argument for anyone who wants to go with propane for the purpose of being able to consider a fine boiler like the Viessmann Vitodens (or other manufacturers for that matter) for their system so long as there is no misunderstanding that the system will be more costly to operate in terms of fuel costs.

Picking up roughly 10% in efficiency by going with condensing over a non-condensing boiler does not make up for the more dramatic difference you pay in terms of average cents per Btu for propane versus oil.

AKO

Respectfully disagree

I have no argument for anyone who wants to go with propane for the purpose of being able to consider a fine boiler like the Viessmann Vitodens (or other manufacturers for that matter) for their system so long as there is no misunderstanding that the system will be more costly to operate in terms of fuel costs.

Picking up roughly 10% in efficiency by going with condensing over a non-condensing boiler does not make up for the more dramatic difference you pay in terms of average cents per Btu for propane versus oil.

Steve Eayrs

I agree with your disagree..... After you add 50% more cost/btu (in our area), for propane vs. oil, even the great Vitodens costs more to operate, than a good oil fired boiler, (buderus, Veissmann,etc.)

My figures are based on a min. 30% in btu's/gallon, plus price per gallon difference.

Don't get me wrong I still love the Vitodens & install some, but it does cost more to operate.


Steve

Joe_13

Dont forget

the Monitor Products FCX oil fired condensing boiler. Claims a 95% efficency in a lower temp application. Only comes in one size and has a low/high fire capability, but shows where oil fired systems can go. Also very pricey.

Dave_13

Old thread

This is some info off an old thread i posted and pricing in my area:
Oil is $1.39 for 140,000 Btu at 85% efficiency which yields $0.0116 per MBtu.

Propane is $1.19 for 92,000 Btu at 94% efficiency which yields $0.0138 per MBtu.

I wonder how much modulation changes things also? And then the added insurance i understand most homeowner insurers want for oil. Don't get me wrong, I'm still on the fence too about this choice- but am leaning more towards propane.

Here's the old thread:

http://forums.invision.net/Thread.cfm?CFApp=2&Thread_ID=13266&mc=9#Message78471

Alan Muller

propane v oil

Very good answers already on this list. Just one additional comment:

With oil, you will own the tank and you have your choice of oil suppliers.

With propane, the usual setup is that the supplier owns the tank and you are pretty well locked in. I think this is a reason why propane prices may spike up somewhat more than oil.

am

Steve Ebels

Cost wise

I calculated this all out for a customer with the same question last year. I averaged the price during heating season for each, figured oil using a boiler @ 86% eff and LP @ 92% eff. and calculated the final cost per 100K btu's for him. Long story short, oil came out ahead by a nearly 20% margin.

You can achieve somewhat higher efficiencies than 92% with a low temp system but I used that figure to reflect more of an average system using 140-160* water.

heatboy

Much more to it.

I’m not saying fuel oil is a bad decision. When radiant, correct radiant, is involved, propane makes sense. I can only speak for the Vitodens, which is all I use for propane. The Munchkin, Ultra and Monitor are fine products, but I have very little experience with them, so I can’t speak about their use in this specific application.

With the modulating Matrix burner on an 8-32 the low side output is less than 34 MBH. During the shoulder seasons the boiler will most often cycle around this firing rate. At max output, it’s 102 MBH. Now, an oil fired boiler, a Crown Freeport CT-3 for example, has an output of 92MBH. During the shoulder seasons, that is what you get is 92 MBH. If you have a heat loss of 100K, then you have to jump to a CT-4, which is 119MBH output. You see where I’m going with this. During the more moderate times the Vitodens wins……easily. Boilers of any kind are at their least efficient when they are cycling on and off. Modulation eliminates inefficiencies of boiler short cycling.

Aside from that, there is the issue of boiler room size and placement of the boiler. I can put the Vitodens in a closet (as pictured) anywhere in the house. Can’t do that with oil. Then there are the venting considerations. I know you can sidewall vent oil, but it certainly isn’t anywhere near the best option. Once, and if, the fuel is actually clean, that might be a more attractive option. And finally, fuel storage. Everybody gets freaked about sinking an oil tank underground, so it’s rarely done. That means more square footage ($100+ per square foot typical) used up in the home. Every propane project I have been involved with has a buried 1000 or 1500 gallon fuel tank. No tank seen from the outside. Also, at least here, propane can be purchased at, or lower than, the price of fuel oil at this gallonage. More fuel oil dealers are into propane so competition is keeping prices lower.

I guess we can get into environmental issues too…………………..

hb


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PJO_5

$0.02 from a H.O.

This is an excellent thread, and there is one subject that hasn't been discussed I believe.

How about the up-front/installation costs of the two systems that have frequently been mentioned? In this case it is the condensing propane unit versus the oil-fired cast iron unit.

I had this same choice to make six years ago, although the modulating technology wasn't around then I believe.

I would not consider this if the system was ALL low temperature radiant and no domestic demand (let's say the house has solar DHW)...the condensing equipment is a no-brainer IMHO because the feed temps. would never be above, say 120F.

I would venture to believe that from a purely financial point of view, it would be very difficult in all other (more typical) systems to beat an oil-fired cast iron set-up when you weigh the up-front costs along with the total fuel usage over, say, 15 years...the life of (what most Wallies mention) the condensing equipment.

Couple this with the fact that the C.I. boiler should last twice that long and you replace the condensing unit, then are further "ahead". Remember that this is purely financial, which is what most homeowners care about the most.

Add a simple control set-up to the C.I. system to take advantage of it's thermal mass and it brings it closer to the efficiency level of the condensing equipment...although I believe there would still be a consistent gap.
Heatboy's information on the advantage of the modulating boiler in the shoulder seasons is an excellent example of this gap.

In my own personal system I will replace my oil-fired C.I. boiler in twenty five years or so...with a renewable energy system. Maybe the up-front cost will be as cheap as other alternatives, making it attractive to all.

Talk about "leapfrogging" technologies...I can dream can't I? :-)

Take Care, PJO

hr

With either you can own the tank

I purchased a new 500 gallon LP tank. Installed with regulator @ $700. What does a 500 gallon oil tank cost to buy.

With my own tank I can shop. I pre buy LP in the summer or fall. I locked in at $.99 this year.

Most new homes around here go with underground tanks. Mine tucks behind the garage and isn't notice-able. Except from space

The biggest factor is availability. We have a few dozen LP dealers in the area. Two oil dealers. Makes the shopping easier.

In the East, however, it is probably the opposite.

I'm not well versed on oil, sounds like a yearly check and tune is necessary to keep them efficient. Should oil get out of tune what is the fuel burning efficiency? 50, 60, 70%. Keeping in mind if out of tune that BTU content is of less value when comparing 140,000 to 92,000BTU per gallon.

Generally a properly install and adjusted gas or LP can go fine without yearly service. Add a yearly service fee to the equasion also when comparing the two fuels.

hot rod

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Patrick_25

I have been toying with the idea of converting also - forcing my hand is that the burner assembly (Carlin) on my fuel oil boiler is getting to be tempermental. So I priced out new guns for the fuel oil boiler (cha-ching!!!) - and that got me thinking about replacing the 20 year old Burnham. Then the questions start running threw my head - fuel oil versus propane (no natural gas in area). So I priced boilers and found that fuel oil boilers are around 20-25% more then propane. So I figure that the efficiency of the old boiler is around 70% - on a good day - and the boiler I am eyeing is a Buderus starting at 86.5% eff. - so I start pricing fuel oil cost versus propane - my area fuel is around $1.39 per gallon and propane is $1.39 per gallon. Then I figure in the maintenance costs and noise level and....... So you know what I figured out - I figured that I need a aspirin - BAD!!! I know I will be watching this thread closely to gather all your info.

Patrick_25

Also if you would or would not convert which manufacturer would you go with - I checked out the Buderus site and the boild seems to be very nice. What do you guys think???

joel_14

Pat

If your in the east oil is cheaper period. and yes we sell and install the Vitodens. the only time the Vitodens could win would be in extreem low BTU loss situations where even the smallest oil boiler would be oversized. If you have a 20 year old burhnam you absolutely don't want to put a new gun in it. This is like putting a new motor in a 20 Yold chevy chevette. A new Condensing Propane boiler will not be cheaper to install than a good oil boiler in a replacement situation. Hey HotRod only 2 oil dealers in your town and 6 propane? opertunity is knocking on your door my friend!