Heating Manufacturer's Software \"glitch\"

RC

Is it too late for the "Mills Rule"?
Just kidding
Have a good one folks!

Unknown

Accountability. What do you guys think?

I found out on Friday that version 1.0 of heat loss design software I used to calculate my room-by-room & whole house heat loss for a recent client has a "glitch" that I've read will be addressed in their NEXT version "when it comes out." Too late for me.

Turns out that the Heat Loss software figured my job for 180.F system fluid temp and 20.F outdoor design temp. (system default settings I suppose) I input my own system fluid temp and outdoor design temp which is reflected in the faux printout. The software program failed to prompt a recalculation when I went in and changed the design parameters. Without another thought, I printed it out and ran the BB out on the job per the recommended specs.

I've only now discovered that I'm short over sixteen linear feet of baseboard heat convecor units in eight different rooms. No wonder my clients have been cold. I thought that I put enough BB in. More in fact than the simulator program advised me to. However, it's been below 7º F here in New England and the system was completed weeks ago. My clients have been cold and that makes me look bad.

Upon my investigation of what went wrong, I've found nowhere within the software program's instructions/HelpMe files does it indicate to the user that certain prompts, moreover (re-prompts) must be made in order to properly calculate or (recalculate) the heat losses.

I'm not pointing any fingers here. I should know better. I should know just how much heat is required just by looking at the room;-) Right?

It's unfortunate that I now have to lose a whole day in the middle of the hating season to go back and add more heat emitters, lose my systemic fluid additives and look like an amateur.

Anyone elce ever make this mistake?

Gary


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Mark Wolff

Kick up the supply to 200* and smile big.

Al Letellier

heat loss calculations

IT happens to the best of them, and you just proved it. That's why I have all my heat losses done at the supplier. someone to fall back on if a problem occurs. ( always check them carefully!). Besides, as busy as we all are, were do you find the time to do them yourself. If I am correct that you are a small shop like myself, I can find more productive ways to spend my time. It's nice to be able to see the job thru from start to finish, but.....

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Phil_6

so give us a clue..

maybe some of us are using the same software. Which one is it?

Phil

DanHolohan

Yes, please.

Which one?

Paul Rohrs_2

Comparisons

So everyone sharpen your pencils....

Can we run a comparison with the same parameters, then post our results on the wall.

We can pick a simple floor plan. add sqft , allow for windows, doors, wall heights, r-values of walls and ceilings, floor coverings, zoning, etc.

I have wanted to do this previously, but now we can know definitively on BTU load comparisons. (maybe) I suppose it will depend on the capabilities of the software. But isn't that the point?

Who's in? What software? Then we can pursue the layout. I am just looking for a percentage difference in overunders.

This should be interesting.

Regards,

PR

Paul Rohrs_2

culpability...

If you don't pay the supplier for the design portion, are they still liable?

Inquiring minds want to know.

PR

Bill_14

A software

is only a tool and it must be used with good common sense. You should always have a "check" system in place that gives you the confidence your final numbers are relatively good.

Having an accurate heat loss calculation is as important as having an accurate cost estimate (bid). One affects the other.

It is always a good idea to have a "feel" for the job based on rules of thumb, experience, alternate check methods, etc. to compare with your software results. Otherwise you will sometimes hit a snag.

hydronicsmike

You know what?

I find that because of the amount of software available today, a lot of designers do not (need to??)know how the numbers arrive. Sometimes it may be too simple to just use a program.

I now see the point! When I was hired as a heating designer at a wholesaler in Alberta a few years back, I had to learn it all from scratch. My boss at the time and still mentor sent me home with a big blueprint of a 3500sqft home and a manual designer guide. I had to do a complete manual heatloss over a weekend. - When I say manual heatloss and over a weekends time, I mean it. It takes forever!! - The following Monday I got to do the same heatloss using the software we had. Frankly, the software was a lot quicker and easier, but the point being made, was that every designer should know how a heatloss calculation is done manually.

It is one thing to know where to enter the right numbers in a program. But it is another to know what those numbers actually do and stand for.

I do a number of heatloss calcs throughout a year. Trust me, there are times when the numbers are entered too quick. After you do a few heatloss calcs, you get confident and fast at it. Unfortunately, this creates room for error. If it wasn't for the lesson I was taught by manually doing the odd heatloss calc here and there, I could have lost my back a couple of times. Now, when I look at some of those numbers, I catch errors with my eye.

Make a long story short; A software program shall not eliminate the need for knowledge. It shall help you get a job done quicker. Always double-check the numbers. But most important of all, know why thins are the way they are.

Again, Thank You Barry!

Mike

DanHolohan

Governor!

Nice to see you, Mike. We've missed you!

Tony Conner

This Type Of...

...problem is rampant in every industry I know. I go to engineering boards that routinely have posts from people (as in engineers) looking for software, free software, Excel spreadsheets... This stuff is fine and dandy, but at the end of the day, it's just another tool.

I think in a great many instances, understanding of mechanical fundamentals has been shunted aside in favour of somebody who can make beautiful spreadsheets, graphs and reports - all without actually understanding very much of what will happen when the project moves off their screens and turns into nuts, bolts and pipe somewhere. Computer literacy has largely replaced engineering in a lot of companies, and I see some serious trouble ahead for a lot of these outfits when the current crop of old guys who were trained before computers were everywhere, retires in a few years.

hydronicsmike

Thanks Dan.

Been on the road for a while. I've missed this place and all of you guys just as much!

Good to be back.

hydronicsmike

Tony...

...I fully agree. Unfortunately, the brightest people in our industry are in the last few years of their career (and well deserved). The future is not looking as bright as some think. Thats why all young guns should take advantage and learn from the "not yet dead men". I do it every day! There ain't enough young folks to follow our trades as is.

I also agree with you saying that software is a tool and NOT a replacement for knowledge.

Well said, my friend.

steve_31

Could it be Slant Fin's Heat Loss Explorer?

The Slant Fin users' forum notes problems with the way the software handles changed values (see http://trainingroom.slantfin.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum&f=3), and I have found that simply changing design temperatures (inside or out) does not change the calculated heat loss.

DanHolohan

> Could it be Slant Fin's Heat Loss Explorer?

> The Slant Fin users' forum notes problems with

> the way the software handles changed values (see

> http://trainingroom.slantfin.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultim

> atebb.cgi?ubb=forum&f=3), and I have found that

> simply changing design temperatures (inside or

> out) does not change the calculated heat loss.

DanHolohan

Don't know.

I'd appreciate it Gary would stop by and let us know.

Tony Conner

It's A LOT...

...more extensive than many people realize. It's not just this industry, or any particular industry. It's everywhere. There are people looking for free software to "design" bridges, offshore drilling platforms - you name it. Then there are the ones looking for free on-line copies of things like ASME codes. They're "designing" high pressure piping systems in powerhouses and refineries without code books! A lot of the posts, quite frankly, scare the hell out of me.

hr

Paul

The RPA ran the exact same plan through a bunch of design softwares a few years back. Quite a large spread from end to end. Larry Drake or Jonh 2ZZ's could give you more info.

Calcs, more importantly, accurate calcs are crucial. But installers common sense should have a role A home with an entire gable end of glass would be one red flag.

I'm not a rule of thumb designer but you get the feel of what approx. BTU/ sq. ft. numbers "feel" right, after awhile.

Makeing a list, checking it twice, gonna find out who's ... wrong song

hot rod

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Ex Maine Doug

Perhaps you forgot to

close all the windows, shut down the boiler, get out of the house, return to the house, restart the boiler, open the windows and get the message "This boiler has performed an illegal operation".

The software you are using should have either automatically recalulated or asked you if you wanted to recalc. Programmers are supposed to look at all the variables that a user can manipulate to insure that the the results reflect the required change. Another example of bad programming.

Imagine that it is software that drives all those fancy exhaust gas test instruments, drives all those fancy Tekmar et al controls, all the fancy boiler and modulating burner controls. Remember the radiation therapy machine that had bad software back when? Used to overzap people and some died a rather painful death.

Then again it is software that runs the engine in the cars and trucks.

Abort, Retry, Ignore?

Mark Hunt

YIKES!!!!


I'm never going over another bridge again!!!!!!!!!!

I never thought about it that way Tony.

Now you scared me!

Mark H

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Dave Osmond

It's the one listed on this site.

Dan,

Gary's not the only one who has been burned by this "glitch".

There is a real problem that should be addressed by the "free Heatloss Software" provider. It's simple enough to follow the instructions. But when they aer followed to the letter and you still end up with the wrong numbers, and you only find the solution after talking with "the right people", it's usually too late as Gary has stated.

I'm curious as to how this turns out. I'm betting the Mfgr. will find a way to make this look like it's the user's fault. Try it for yourself and you will see the problem is self evident. The Calculator will not prompt the user to change a value and then change it back to the desired value. That's the only way the system calculator will re calculate the figures. This must be done in each room if a single design perameter is changed, you've gotta go back and play with the numbers in every single room in order for it to do the math.

Tony Conner

It's More...

...of a "developing trend", than a widespread practice, so I'm still using bridges But there are a steady trickle of posts looking for on-line freebie software and various code documents. Many of the posters work for consulting engineering outfits. This means that the engineering outfit they work for has taken on work that they don't have the code (or any other) books covering the "design" they've been hired to produce. I find that disturbing, long term. I've gotten into arguements in plants with "engineering pups" who dismiss my solutions because "this is off old software". I take the time to explain to them that ALL of the software in question (my old and the new they are referring to), were based on formulas that have been around for a hundred years, and that we could figure it out (and get the same answer) with a pencil on the back of an envelope - it would just take longer. You can watch their faces when it is explained that all the software does, is the math, and the guy putting the data in is driving the process, whether using a pencil or software. There are always judgement calls that must be made by the designer - overall heat transfer coefficient for heat exchangers, pressure drop/velocity in piping or duct systems, corrosion allowances taken for the required grade & wall thickness of pipe is for a given high pressure piping system, etc. The difference in the answers can be large indeed, depending upon whether the designer is conservative or aggressive in his decisions.

DanHolohan

Dave,

have you spoken to anyone at Slant/Fin?

Jim Erhardt

Heat Loss Calcs

We have been in contact with Gary and are working with him to resolve the problem. We very much appreciate the opportunity to do so!

Tony and others make some great points - there is no substitute for experience, and an understanding of the "science" behind what we do. At our in-house seminars here at the factory, we spend nearly two hours on the basics of heat loss calculation, including how the difference between indoor temperature and outdoor temperature (delta-T) and the thermal resistance (r-value) of the wall/ceiling/floor that stands between them determines transmission losses. Change either delta-T or r-value, and there will most certainly be a change in the heating requirements.

In a perfect world, we would never make mistakes and have tools that never fail us. In the eyes of our cutomers, it's not so much that mistakes are made or things go wrong, but rather how we respond when those things happen.

Jim Erhardt

Heat Loss Calcs

We have been in contact with Gary and are working with him to resolve the problem. We very much appreciate the opportunity to do so!

Tony and others make some great points about the tools of the trade - there is no substitute for experience, and an understanding of the "science" behind what we do. As part of our Hydronics Fundamentals seminars, we spend nearly two hours on the basics of heat loss calculation, including how the difference between indoor temperature and outdoor temperature (delta-T) and the thermal resistance (R-value) of the wall/ceiling/floor that separates them determines transmission losses. Change either delta-T or R-value, and we can most certainly expect a change in the heating requirements.

In a perfect world, we would never make mistakes and our tools would never fail us. But these things do happen, and we are always appreciative of the opportunity to be part of the solution.

DanHolohan

Thanks, Jim

Have you revised the software that you're sending out now?

Jim Erhardt

Hydronic Explorer 2

Dan, version 1 is now out of production, and version 2 will be available in about a month. Along with many other tweaks and added features (including radiant floor heating tools, importing/exporting of job data, contractor proposal form templates and an online software update function), this specific issue has been addressed in version 2.

We will also have a comprehensive help section on our website, which will be found at www.slantfin.com/he2 . This will include a FAQ section, user manual download, and tutorials on using the software. In short, HE2 will offer very significant inprovements in all areas over the old version. One thing that will be the same - the software will remain available free-of-charge.

I will place an announcement here on The Wall as soon as we're ready to roll!

Ex Maine Doug

You might want to have

some of the pros on this Wall who have the experience you refer to check out your version 2 before launching it on the world. As you know, Version "x+1" just means that you may have have fixed bugs found in Version "x" and Version "x+2" is the one that fixes the bugs in Version "x+1". Too much testing by users is a good thing.

Unknown

Thanks Jim,,, and

everyone elce who has voiced their concerns.

Sorry I couldn't respond sooner. but, I was being baptized by Viessmann in RI today. What a place!!! Richard Threthewey's not the **** I was told he was. All fine gentlemen present. A breath of fresh air.

I'd like to point out that this software problem would have never occured if I had only (double checked) my figures closely before printing. Whenever using an unfamiliar program, allways double check your work. I should know better.

All of the corrispondance I've recieved leads me to believe that Slant /Fin is a stand up company. They have fixed the "glitch" on the next version; HE2 and are willing to work with me to resolve my problem.

Not all users will experience this glitch.
I hope everyone who reads this will understand that this only happens with the usage of certain PCs running certian applications. I'm still not clear on which ones cause the problem though?

I'm sure this wouldn't have happened if they would only write the darned software for us Mac users;-)

Gary



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Unknown

I'm game.

> So everyone sharpen your pencils....

>

> Can we

> run a comparison with the same parameters, then

> post our results on the wall.

>

> We can pick a

> simple floor plan. add sqft , allow for windows,

> doors, wall heights, r-values of walls and

> ceilings, floor coverings, zoning, etc.

>

> I have

> wanted to do this previously, but now we can know

> definitively on BTU load comparisons. (maybe) I

> suppose it will depend on the capabilities of the

> software. But isn't that the point?

>

> Who's in?

> What software? Then we can pursue the layout. I

> am just looking for a percentage difference in

> overunders.

>

> This should be

> interesting.

>

> Regards,

>

> PR



Paul,

I'm also curious what the differences would be from one program to the next.



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Unknown

I'm game.

Paul,

Great idea. I'm also curious what the differences would be from one program to the next.

"We can pick a simple floor plan. add sqft , allow for windows, doors, wall heights, r-values of walls and ceilings, floor coverings, zoning, etc."

We should probably start a new thread for this. I'm sure some people are getting sick and tierd of seeing this post.

Who wants to set the design perameters?

Gary



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[Deleted User]

in case any one wonders

ive done the same heat loss calcs on hvac-calc and siggy's hydronics design software and the two are very very close with the numbers, which always makes me feel good..the free one always came up less, alot less,,so i reverted back to the other two..