CO training and suppliers

Mark Hunt

I started calling suppliers today to try to get them to offer CO and combustion training to the contractors.

Most alreadt offer training on different products they sell, but NONE in my area offer training on CO and combustion.

Could some of you folks start asking your suppliers as well?

Let me know if I can help.

Mark H

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Steamhead

I'll see what I can do

this type of training is sorely needed. I know I can't possibly be the only one in the Baltimore area who knows what to do with a digital analyzer, but some of the things I see out there....

Today I tested three gas boilers and three stoves. Each boiler was overfired, one considerably so. On one boiler, the metal shield that goes between the firing area and the boiler's vestibule was detached, just sitting on top of the burner tubes. This boiler was reading 225 PPM. Simply remounting the shield and resetting the input got it down to 45 PPM.

One of the stoves was producing over 1100 PPM on ALL the burners- top as well as oven. The other two were OK on top, but the ovens were CO factories.

The water heaters in these houses were OK. At least something was right.

We got to these in time, but there are thousands more in this area just waiting to kill someone as well as wasting a lot of gas thru incomplete combustion.

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Mark Eatherton1

I think...

that people that test are wonderful. Only problem is, there are not enough people testing. Everyone who works with fire should test.

During the last 24 hours, I recommended to my college, that I sit as an outside advisor, and on the inside as an instructor, that they offer a class on combustion analysis. It was well received. One of the other advisors, an inspector from one of the local counties, also sits on numerous technical advisory committees for the U.P.C.

He recommended that we get a hold of the U.M.C. folks who would be responsible for requiring testing at start up and subsequent maintenance experiences. I'll be in contact, I assure you.

Today, I was invited up to look at a misbehaving steam system above Evergreen on Upper Bear Creek. Anyone who's ever driven that canyon has seen this rock home and marveled at it's immensity. 1.1 miles up the canyon, on the right hand side. One of the most beautiful homes you've ever seen. A natural.

Anyway, on my way to the boiler, I passed another boiler room, and couldn't help but peek into the room. You know, it's the boiler geek in me:-)

So I look around the corner and see this swimming pool heater, a water heater and a small closed loop S.H. boiler.

I make mental note of it and proceed to the other end of the house to meet the misbeaven steam system.

I look it over, make notes and tell the lady of the house that now that I'm there, I should do some CO tests on her gas fired appliances. "Oh, by all means, please do.." she said with a smile:-)

I start in the pool room and find her pool boiler pumping 1200 PPM. I shut it off and pull its fuel line. The Mr. (a well to do lawyer) walks around the corner and I have to break him the news. "Oh yeah? The plumber's been working on that boiler. See the control (a melted glob of plastic with wires coming out of it, and it was STILL working!!)there, the plumber said we need to move the control outside of the cover so it doesn't get so hot..." Give me a break. I kid you not. 1200 PPM.

The downward radiation and reflection from the clogged copper heat exchanger was driving the temperature in side of the control vestibule to exceed manufacturers recommendations. I explain to the H.O. my liability in the situation, and the urgency behind me pulling the plug on this baby. He understood.

The lady of the house was estatic with me. She offered to let me stay in this castle overnight sometime when they were gone. I might just take her up on that.

They were headed out when I left, on their way to buy a dozen CO detectors.

The other gas fied appliances were within reasonable consideration. In need of service nonetheless, but OK on CO.

If you don't test, you don't know. If you don't know, you're just guessing, and gambling with peoples lives.

I used to guess too. Almost killed a good friend, and got smart in a hurry. Have never felt like leaving this trade so bad in my whole life. Caused me a whole LOT of lost sleep. Thinking about all the jobs I'd done and hadn't tested...

Now, I test everything. Even if I'm not responsible for its operation. If it burns, test it.

ME

Colin

You are so........

RIGHT. I was on a fall funasty check and clean and found the 1970's vintage Colman to only be producing 70ppm air free per clam shell when I heard the water heater shut down.

After removing the knob to get it turned up high enough to kick back in(I let them know about the scalding issues and set it way down when done)found it to be producing 2600+ and that with a 150 degree tank. That got there attention!

Went thru a trial to negitivly preasureize the house and venting preformed fine. We put in a new heater the following day. The new one tested out at 50 ppm.

If you don't Test......

Colin

rudy_2

Bacharach distributers

If you guys have any local Bacharach distributers, talk with them about sponsoring a seminar.

Frustrating, we're doing a seminar next Tuesday at a distributer in Grand Rapids, MI. When I spoke with the guy who is organizing it yesterday, he said that only 6 folks had signed up.

Fortunately, they are bringing in all the outside sales staff so there will be a decent sized group, but, it amazes me that only six contractors in the area are coming.....

If anyone in the GR area hasn't heard about the seminar and is interested, send an email and I can get you all the details.

Mark Eatherton1

The Ostrich Syndrome...

Contractors don't really like "looking for trouble". They feel that if it doesn't affect them they don't have to worry about it. They think if they ignore it , it will go away, and they can continue down lifes path with no problems. Until an appliance they installed causes a problem. It could shut their business down.

Quit sticking your head in the sand contractors. Address the problem head on. You'll feel much better for it, and it can and SHOULD be a profit center...

Quit guessing and hoping. Start testing.

ME

rudy_2

Good analogy, Mark

What were the lyrics to that old Steppenwolf song? Something like:

"Let's stick our heads into the sand, pretend that all is grand, and hope that everything turns out OK"

Steamhead

Were you able

to determine why the old heater was producing so much CO?

I agree that if an older unit is making that much CO it would be better to just replace it, but what about a newer one?

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Jim Davis

Top Reasons I get for not attending training

Here is my list:
1. We are too busy to learn right now. Call us when we are slow

2. We are too slow right and cash flow is down and we can't afford it

3. If we train our people they will want more money

4. The way my grandfather did it is good enough for me

5. Our customers couldn't afford us doing the job right

6. We don't want to know what we are doing wrong

7. We will think about doing things right next year

8. We have insurance to cover our mistakes

9. Our customers don't care about safety, efficiency and comfort. Just cost

10. We have been sucessful doing it wrong for 40 years

11. Finding problems creates more liability

12. I already know all I want to know

13. Being mediocre makes us more competitive

rudy_2

And the #1 Reason is:

If we do train our people, the competition will attempt to hire them away offering higher wages.

So if we don't train our people, maybe they'll stick around...

Mark Hunt

Wait til they see Phase 3


Mark H

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jackchips_2

Sounds like

it will be real shocking, Mark.

Mark Hunt

hehehehe


Not nearly as shocking as watching your kids being carried out on stretchers.

Not nearly as shocking as watching little coffins being lowered into little holes.

Not nearly as shocking as watching the reaction of a 7 year old girl when she is told her baby brother "went to be with the angels".

Not nearly as shocking as two young parents waking up to find their 1 year old twins dead.

Not nearly as shocking as the looks on the faces of the EMT's that found a family of 11 dead.

Not just shock sir.

Shock and awe.

Mark H


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Unknown

I notice at all the bigs shows

the most well attended seminars are those that are about how to increase profits. Even technical presentations have this in their titles.

"How to Test for Mold and Make a Profit" that one was packed out standing room only. "How to Test Heat Exchangers for Profit" also packed out. "How to install Hydronic Systems" (It was not one of Dan Holohans seminars)10 people showed up my theory the title did not offer a money incentive. Just a point a big name will also draw a crowd. No offense Dan but a group who has you often for seminars recently told me that if you came and just sat up front and did nothing a crowd would show up, that is power.

What is my point, it has to hit the pocket book or be a well known presenter in order to get some attention.

jerry scharf

starting at the local code level

Mark,

I live in Palo ALto, CA. The city prides itself on being progressive. I have a friend in the planning dept. and am thinking that maybe I cound approach the head of the inspection department and see if they would add requiring a CO test printout on all combusion equipment before final permit signoff. I know none of my stuff was tested when installed.

If I make the initial contactand they're interested, could I put them in touch with you for more information.

thanks,
jerry

Mark Hunt

I will do


whatever I can sir.

Thanks for caring!

Mark H

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jackchips_2

I beg to differ

Tim. I've been to one of Dan's seminars and would at least expect him to cross his legs every now and then. We'd at least have to have something to take notes on.

Thanks for helping an anxious Pats fan to relax.

Jim Davis

Tesitn for Profit

Timmie,
Two years ago at Comfortech I did a presentation on CO & Combustion Testing for profit and people were still afraid to come.

Unknown

Maybe they are just plain

afraid. Or may not think it is profitable. One thing for sure if you do not get educated it could sure cost you a lot.

John R. Hall

Jim/Timmie

Maybe we should title our ISH-NA seminar as "CO Testing -- What Are You Afraid Of?"

Unknown

The truth is that

in most cases it is not a real part of the installation process. It is also the case that in many locations installers may never see there installation again as they do not do service. They rely on whom ever to service the equipment. In some cases it may be an untrained individual doing service. Combustion training to most is a boring subject and does not have the finanacial gain attached to installation and equipment replacement. Many times a piece of equipment is replaced as faulty when in fact it is a building problem - guess what new equipment same buliding problem. Attitude new equipment it is okay no test walk away thinking new equipment solved problem. Six months later back to square one. When I walk in and start talking about combustion, air for combustion and building pressurization they go ballistic they say, - "that can not be the problem" they scream, "it is this damn equipment , why don't they make it better, those engineers if they had to put up with what I put up with". When I can get them calmed down and begin to educate them on all the missing ingredients to their installation and finally do some testing they are amazed. I could go on with contractors spending 7 hours changing parts when the problem was gas pressure coming in from the street. They have no idea, it is easier to just keep changing parts hopeing that it will finally work okay.

We need a lot more than a couple of hours at a convention to solve these problems if I had my way no one would be allowed to touch a piece of equipment until they had four years of training. I was not allowed to service heating equipment when I started out until I made my "B" rate that took 3 years 6 months with over 20 weeks in class and 4 weeks in lab with 26 weeks riding with an experienced service tech. When they finally turned me loose then I really began to learn what I had learned.

Murph'_4

one of local trade schools

list of courses offered:


Introduction to Refrigeration
Theory Sheet Metal Fabrication Layout
Commercial Refrigeration Theory
Estimating
Blueprint Reading
Heating, Ventilation & A/C Theory
Pneumatic Controls
Heat Pumps



absolutley nothing about combustion


you were very lucky to have been involved so many years ago before the "bean counters" got there, or else economics would have played a bigger rule, thanks!!



Murph'

Mark Hunt

Geeze!!!!


I have seen a bunch of suppliers bragging about themselves here, but now they seem to have disappeared.

Where's the supplier that "works with you"?

No takers?

Mark H

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