My Boiler Photo: Knucklehead Special

Steamhead

installed in place of the ancient vent should be fine.

But in order to verify whether the mains will be balanced- what are the measurements of the shorter main?

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Hal

My Boiler Picture: Knucklehead Install!

This is our second winter in our new (1899) house. The boiler is relatively new, and was probably installed to expedite sale of the house. The seller told us she spent $9000.

Let's see if I've learned anything from Dan's books:

It's a Peerless EC-05. I have approximately 550-600 sf of iron, exposed risers and [the term for compensating for steam delivery, which I forgot], based on thin column water-type rads. The boiler is rated 896 sf of steam, so it's oversized by 40-50%.

furthermore:
- copper near-boiler piping...bad
- uninsulated piping...bad
- header piping badly configured
- float LWCO installed incorrectly

No wonder I've got water in the pipes, noisy risers, and hammering (in one horizontal runout only, probably a badly pitched pipe (under the floor)).

The position of the float LWCO makes it impossible to maintain a correct water level. Am I right?

Did I miss anything? I wouldn't be surprised.

Thanks for looking.

Fred P

Yikes

Im not a pro, but even I can see that looks bad. The float lWco does look to high but its hard to tell from the pic.

Dale

LWCO

I think it's OK as to where the float is. The normal water line is found in the manufacturers install instructions and should be marked or tagged on the boiler. The LWCO/sightglass taps are also given in the instructions, this #67 LOOKS like it was installed into the usual ports. The 67 blowdown valve can and should have been turned to face the front or side, no big deal just a gasket to change it. I would check these things and lower the water level to see if the LWCO shuts off the burner.

scrook_2

downfire it

Per Peerless's data sheet it can be fired at 2.5 GPH to 1.75 GPH, if you fire it at 1.75 GPH (assuming it isn't already)its I-B-R net output is 159,000 BTU/hr, your connected load of 550-600 sq ft * 240 BTU/hr per sq ft radiation yields 132,000 to 144,000 BTU/hr connected load, so it is oversized by 20%-10% at the - 05's *minimum* firing rate (but 60%-45%) at *max* fire rate). An EC-04 would have let you go to 1.65 or 1.50 GPH, (or even down to 1.25 GPH), but the AFUE would have been a couple percent lower; and you have a tankless hot water coil in the side, so it may be a tossup between a minimally fired -05 and a nearly max fired -04.

The copper is UGLY and a problem waiting to happen, I’d look at re-piping it in black iron and insulating it come summer.

The float LWCO looks like a factory install except the blowdown valve is mounted backward.

Is that a second, probe type, LWCO under the P-trol?

Also what’s the P-trol set at?

What's it have for end of main vents?

What's it fired at?

Hal

scrook, thanks for the reply.

I think the nozzle may be 1 GPH. We had an oil company guy do a yearly service last year. Then a heating guy we called to look at the system found a replaced nozzle on the top marked 1 GPH. The truth is I don't know for certain what the nozzle is.

The float LWCO is not installed straight out from the glass, but is piped on elbows, raising the float almost 2 inches. I downloaded the manual from Peerless, and their diagram does not match this job. Auto feed brings water up to half the glass.

There is a second probe type LWCO under the p-trol.
The p-trol is set all the way down at .5. I have not opened the top to check the differential.

The shorter main is vented with a gorton #1 that looks fairly new and is venting.
The longer main is vented with some ancient thing that I had to discover by removing panelling in the basement. It too is venting.

By "fired at", you mean the nozzle and pressure, right? As above, I am not certain.

scrook_2

fired at =

actual rate in gallons per hour.

Oil nozzles flows are specified at 100psi, the flowrate nominally increases with the square root of the pressure, so at 150psi, a 1.0 GPM nozzle will flow sqrt(150psi/100psi)*1.0GPH or 1.22 GPH, at 200 psi it becomes sqrt(200/100)*1.0 or 1.41 GPH, etc.

Some burner/boiler setup are run at higher oil pressures than 100 psi at this can give better combustion properties in them. The factory tests the heck out of them to find the optimum settings. Yours looks like a Beckett, which Peerless shows as running at 140 psi w/ a 1.50 to a 2.00 nozzle for a calculated firing rate of 1.77 to 2.36 GPH (effectively 1.8 to 2.4 GPH).

Hal

Right about the Beckett@140 psi.

Thanks again, scrook.

You are right about the Beckett@140 psi.
Again, I'm not certain what the nozzle is, and probably won't until the season is over.

Question: is it possible that the installer was attempting to compensate for the oversized boiler by choosing a smaller nozzle AND raising the water level to reduce volume of steam space inside the boiler?

Hal

Oh, I forgot to ask: What's the problem with the blowdown?

scrook_2

blowdown

just the valve handle's facing the boiler, not the user -- not a problem, just a little awkward to blow it down.

It could be remounted to face the other way for the price of a new gasket and a little labor.

When it's tuned up you can see what nozzle is in it.

Are you in cool (cold? REALLY COLD?) N.E.? As they say here: "if you don't like the weather, wait a bit, it'll get worse!"

Hal

Brooklyn, NY

scrook, the house is in Brooklyn, and yeah, it's cold. We've got 3-6" of snow in the forecast too.

I've got plenty of heat at home, I just have to pay attention to my boiler.

By the way, my place of business is in a steam heated commercial building in Manhattan. The boiler here recently went belly-up and there's a portable boiler in a trailer out on the street.

At least I haven't got that kind of problem at home.

So the blowdown handle is on the back. I think you can see that's the least of my worries.

Richard D._2

Looks like

the main is is the center of riser! Or Bull headed! Copper header Bummer,as said it is a problem waiting to happen!
Good Luck...Richard

Hal

Thanks Richard,

You're right about the configuration of the header.
Anyway, it's not luck I need. It's learning more about the system, thanks to you guys and Dan, so I can speak intelligently and understand the professional that comes to make the fixes.

I have no problem paying good money to the guy that does the job right and stands by his work.

Hal

Ernie

Pressuretrol

You might want to check the way the pressuretrol sits on the pigtail if it has a mercury switch in it. Look under steam problems on the left.

Hal

Thanks Ernie, I'll check it.

Steamhead

When you have it repiped

look for vents at the ends of the steam mains. If there are none, have them properly sized and added. If you have vents there, see that they're properly sized.

My experience has been that those who don't know not to pipe steamers in copper also know nothing about proper venting.

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Unknown

Ahh , Brooklyn

When I worked in the city , we were in Brooklyn at least twice a week replacing a steamer with the EC you have there . Bay Ridge was my favorite . Are you in a Brownstone ?

I would make sure the company you get follows the Peerless instructions very closely ( they are online if you don't have the instruction booklet ) - the 2 boiler risers have to be teed into a 3 inch main by minimum specs . 4 inch would be better .

Now I'm not positive about this but I heard that raising the 67 LWCO up like yours can void the warantee . Anyone from M-M post on The Wall ?

Your particular pressuretrol does not have mercury in it , so the position of the pigtail is fine as is . What about the pressure gauge , is it still working ?

Heres an install we did last week that is very similar to your system . Good luck on the repipe Hal .

Hal

Thanks, Steamhead. The mains are vented, as mentioned above. The shorter main has a new looking Gorton #1, probably went on when the boiler job was done. The longer main has some ancient thing that I found only after ripping down some panelling in the basement. I don't want to touch it because it looks like it might crumble if I do. I'll wait for a guy who's got parts and tools and knows what he's doing. Meanwhile, it does seem to vent and close.

Hal

Nice job, Ron!
Yes I'm in a brownstone. (1899)
I have already downloaded the manual from Peerless.
Thanks for the heads-up.

Steamhead

If you measure

the length and diameter of your mains, we can tell you what vents you need. You might need to replace the ancient one if it's too small- might have been OK for coal, but not for oil or gas.

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Hal

Pipe measurements are on the way...

In reference to the above query about the pressure guage on the boiler:

The scale reads from -30 to 30, and is marked:

"Hg PSI

Which is curious, because it's either inches of mercury or pounds per square inch, but not both.
I don't know if it works, but it moves.

Dale

vacuum

Some of the old gauges had 0 in the center and read down to inches of mecury, 2 inches of HG = 1 psi

scrook_2

it's both...

sort of.
From 0 to full vacuum is 0-30 inHg (= 0-15 psiVacuum) but for pressure it's 0-30 psi, a common arrangement on vac/pressure gauges.

You also may see 30-0-15, 30-0-60, 30-0-100, etc. in gauge catalogs for oither applications, 30-0-30 is used on low pressure boilers as 30 psi is double the relief valve lift pressure ensuring the gauge won't be damaged by overpressure.

Hal

Steamhead,
The steam main in question runs 30' from the header in 2-1/4" O.D. black pipe, then turns 90 degrees for another 10' of same pipe. The pipe then makes a U turn and runs 15' of 1-5/8" O.D. black pipe to the vent, and then turns down to become the wet return.

So it's a total of 40' of 2-1/4" O.D. black pipe before the last horizontal runout to a riser, then 15' of 1-5/8 O.D. black pipe to the vent.

By the way, I read your company profile and was impressed that you guys installed a steam system from scratch.
I love steam heat, and expect my system will some day be perfect.

Dave T

LWCO

has been raised so that it will operate the automatic water feeder at a level that covers the tankless hot water coil and the other probe type cut off is a backup at the low water line. Not a terrible LWCO configuration if this was the installers intend and they are wired up properly.

However the copper piping and poor workmanship leaves much to be disired.

The good news is the Peerless ECT boiler you have is perhaps the best residential steam boiler available. Dependable, a large steam dome, and has a great track record.

As far as it being oversized, as other posts here suggest, have a burner tech install the proper size nozzle for the connected radiation and it will be ok.

As for the copper piping, if you intend to keep the steam system (the ECT can be converted to forced hot water baseboard) then find a competent steam guy to look the system over, find the banging and water in piping problems and solve them all at once. Steam can be a great system when all is as it should be, Dan's site here and his books can point you in the right direction.

Dave T

Hal

Steamhead, thanks for the reply.

The shorter main is 15' of 2-1/4 O.D. black pipe before the last take-off to a riser, then 15' of 1-5/8 O.D. black pipe to the vent.
As mentioned above, the vent is currently one Gorton #1.

In reference to the 2 Gorton #1s for the longer main, I imagine this is something my plumber can do. Is there a preferred configuration for the fittings and nipples required to construct this vent?

Hal

Dave, thanks for the generous reply.

Your comment about the LWCO does give me some confidence. I just need to know that the position of the LWCO effectively changes the water level in the glass so I can maintain proper water level.

I am aware of the problems with the copper. At the end of the heating season, I will have the pipes changed, reconfigured, and insulated.

I have every intention of sticking with steam. Dan's books and you guys have been a great help.

Tony Brown

hose bucket

Hello. I hope you remember this posting of yours. I see that you have a hose (lower left) which drains into bucket. Can you please tell me the purpose of draining from that valve, and how often?

Regards