Multiple steam problems, could use some clarification

Jim Franklin

I'm renovating a house in MA, new steam boiler in 2000. It started using lots of water a few weeks ago. I noticed the pressure would go up to 15 or 20 PSI depending on house temperature, and the house was very slow to heat. I babysat it one day, manually cycling it to keep it below 15 PSI and the water stayed in. Tonight I came here and read the incredible wealth of info (especially after searching all over for any morsel of steam info) for a few hours and I think I have a good idea how steam works now. But I have a few questions:

1) The Pressurtrol is set to cut-in at .5 with a diff of 2. The boiler never shuts off until the thermostat stops its call. Is cleaning the pigtail something I can do on a cold boiler? What do I use? Do they go bad frequently or rarely?

2) When I was cycling the boiler manually, the radiators never got hot. The main only got hot up to the 2nd rad (single story house with 6 rads, single pipe system with wet return). There appears to be a small vent just before the main drops down to become the wet return. I never hear any noise from any vents, which are a mix of old and new. How can I tell if they're working correctly? I've placed a finger over them and don't feel any air. To me they seem blocked, yet the farthest rad will eventually heat up if I let the boiler run nonstop for a good while.

There was a family living here until Dec 1 so I have to believe the heat worked until then, although there's a hydronic system in the addition off the kitchen that could have been heating the whole house in the somewhat milder weather. However, there are MANY other things wrong with this place that one wouldn't expect in a recently lived in house :-
Thanks!

jim

Fred P

dont assume because someone was

living there recently that everything was a-ok! When i first moved into my house, I found 2 rads shut off, another rad that didnt heat at all and the rad in the master bedroom hardly ever got warm! And the boiler would run forever..who knows how far back this went on...

Im not an expert, but you shouldnt be at 15-20 pounds of pressure with steam! Sounds like the air isnt getting out, maybe that main vent is clogged????

scrook_2

at 20 psi

the relief should have lifted at 15psi! (and it would not heat well)!

Pigtail may be clogged, p-trol may be bad, pressure gauge may be bad, etc. I'd replace the relief valve for sure!

Jim Franklin

no relief in sight

I thought about the relief valve, but I can't find it. Does it look anything like the hot water heater relief valves? Is it in a standard place on the boiler? I suspect that if the pigtail is clogged, so is everything else.

jim

Robert O'Connor_3

scrook_2

relief valve

externally it looks like a hot water heater relief, internally it lacks the temperture sensor probe as it's pressure only.

Should be on top or upper side/front/back, or perhaps even on one of the steam pipes out of the boiler. If it is missing: SHUT THE BOILER OFF, now, BOTH power AND gas or oil supply! DO NOT run a boiler, hot water or steam (or a hot water heater either) w/o one, EVER!

Also, if everything else on it is clogged, broken, missing, mis-set or in disrepair, be VERY SUSPICOUS of the Low Water Cut OFF too, it may be another accident waiting to happen!

Dale

Relief

The valve will be on top of the boiler and have a 15psi tag. the older ones don't look like a water heater one, there was no down piping, it will be brass. Just replace the pig tail, and just unscrew the main vents with the system off and thread them in loosely and see if air come out around the loose threads, you can also temporarily put in a ball valve to see if air is followed by steam. I think your main vents don't work but the pipes could also be sagged and full of water, the returns full of gunk. I think that the reason the one rad eventually heats is all the air in the main eventually leaves by that rad vent.

sinkdoc 4338

steam problem

call in a heating contractor before you have an explosion . steam boilers are not for the novice.

Jim Franklin

Things are looking up...sort of...

I found the relief valve. Opened it and nothing came out. Probably because:

I replaced the Pressuretrol and pressure guage. The guage now reads zero and hasn't lifted off the stop once. It's been running great for a few hours getting the house from below freezing to 60. The main vents are clear and seal. I even checked them with a mirror when hot, no steam leakage. I replaced two rad vents that were leaking a tiny bit. However, the system is still losing water, which means I'll have to babysit it every 4 hours until the mass of the house gets warm enough that the heat stays off for more than 2-3 minutes.

Any ideas on where the water could be going? I have full view of all the piping, it's all dry. None of the rad vents have steam leaking from them. I'm stumped.

Thanks again,
jim

jim_14

just a hunch but look up at your chimeny

maybe your losing steam (water) that way- read somewhere on this site about white smoke coming from chimney indicates hole in boiler and losing steam that way... how about your returns are they all visible??

Ray Landry

Are you assuming you're losing water just because your guage glass is dropping while the boiler is running? This is normal. As long as when the system stops heating the water line resumes its original position.

Jim Franklin

Water level stuff

Thanks for the responses. I am definitely losing water, since the boiler runs until the low water cut-off cuts off. There does seem to be a lot of steam coming from the chimney but I don't have much to compare it to. I skimmed the boiler this morning while I had things apart, which brought the water to within an inch of the top of the sight glass, and no leaks. If it's cold in the morning I'll flood it and see if maybe it's leaky at the top.

The thing is, I'd expect lots of condensation near the leak. Either in the basement if the boiler has a crack, or out the bottom of the chimney. If its a rad vent, there should be condensation on that room's single pane windows.

I said before I could see all the piping but I was wrong. The house has a 2' thick foundation, and the pipes run all the way to the outside of this since the rads are against the walls. The floor joists come right down against the foundation top so it's real hard to see the elbow where the pipe turns up to the rad. I need to take down the cardboard tile ceiling and get my head in there.

The house is at 60 degrees now, and the I set the water level halfway. I'll see what happens overnight.

jim

Jim Franklin

Steam boiler cracked...switch to hydronic?

The heating guy was out today, finally. Lifted the hood and the top of the boiler is cracked. Looking at the smoke today it was obvious. Took 3 hours to burn through all the water. I put some boiler sealer in there and hopefully it holds me until I can replace it. Still under warranty.

So my question is, do I retain the steam, or go with hydronic. I already have one leg off the boiler for the family room hydronic. I'll be adding 2 bed & 1 bath upstairs, also hydronic. Currently the domestic hot water comes off the coil and it smells like boiler all the time. Also, I plan on renting or selling this place when I'm done renovating it.

The heating guy (who knows he wouldn't be doing the work) said given my plans and needs, I should rip out the steam and go full hydronic, with a storage tank for domestic. I'm 95% in agreement with him, but my heart really likes the steam. I'd appreciate hearing opinions & experiences on the subject.

thanks,
jim

Ray Landry

Just curious... when you kept on flooding the boiler, did you do it while the cast iron was hot or cold? I wonder if you cold shocked the CI and that's why it cracked...

Jim Franklin

I wouldn't have needed to fill it if it wasn't already cracked :-)

But when I was filling it, if it was hot, I went real slow. Painfully slow.

Besides, this started 3 days before I bought the house. It wouldn't suprise me one bit if the previous owner decided to do some yearly maintenance and fill it for the new guy, with the tap full open, while screaming hot.

jim

Steamhead

Keep the steam

The piping is already there and should be OK now that you've found the leak. When running properly, steam is just as comfortable and efficient as hot water (assuming similar boioers). And a steam system won't freeze.

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