An Idea for the Steam Fanciers..... Boilerpro

Boilerpro_3

I think this was recently bought up here. I have a two pipe vapor system with end of mains and dry return in boiler room.... no wet returns. Since the boiler return trap equipment is shot and I have about 4 feet from the new boiler water line to the bottom of the dry return. I am going to remove the boiler return trap equipment and install some Gorton vents and a vaporstat. I also hope to go through and remove the "who knows how old" radiator traps and install supply orifice plates sized to the rads.

I had a thought to improve steam distribution in the mains. Why not put an aquastat on the slowest to heat return main. This aquastat would control a zone valve or solenoid valve on the vent line of the dry return. The vent line would remain closed until the last main was full and then open. This way the rads would not start venting until the steam was completely around the building, providing very even heating of the system.

Any feedback would be appreciated.

Boilerpro

Steamhead

The Raymond Duo-stat people

had a similar setup in the 1940s or so. It looked intruguing, but I've never seen one in the field. I think there's an ad for it in Lost Art Companion.

This might be a good solution on a system where you just can't keep the rads from getting steam before the mains are full, no matter how many Gorton #2 main vents you use.

I wonder how many of those "who knows how old" traps are actually bad, though I'm sure you've tested them. In milder weather when the system is just holding temperature, the rads should be just partially full of steam, and it would never reach the traps. Only in brutally cold weather like this morning (8 degrees here) or when the system is coming out of setback would the rad traps see any steam.

If a system uses traps to vent the steam mains, these traps will always see steam, and will wear out sooner. I ran into this yesterday on a Dunham/Hoffman/Webster hybrid system where one steam main (added later) had a thermostatic trap to vent and drain it. This trap failed and pressurized the dry return. When I replaced it and fired it up, the dry returns did not have any steam in them at all, so the rad traps were still working.



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Boilerpro_3

That's what got me thinking, Steamhead

Actually the traps probably have seen a fair amount of steam because it's got a 680,000 input boiler and only about 250,000 btu of radiation, most of which is off a large portion of the time. Alot of radiation has been removed, some of which I hope to put back in. I hope to put in orifcie plates. Right now, I'm mainly just thinking boiler room because the boiler is burnt toast and they have had no heat for 3 days now. Still waiting on the insurance company.... they haven't even sent out an adjuster yet. Good grief!

Boilerpro

[Deleted User]

i dont know..

i agree that turning the system into a standard two pipe without a return trap would be the way to go..i'm concerned about putting an orifice on every radiator tho..im concerned about short cycling the boiler due to back pressure on the vaporstat since the ''condensing medium'' would be on the other side of the orifice..when the system ran on coal i think this was less an issue than today with the on/off approach of gas..here is something to think about tho..we learned this from an old timer who is the local guru on boilers around here..he's in his eighties i think..caught the tail end of the steam era around here and put in some of the systems here..he taught us to put the vaporstat at the end of the main..its really interesting to watch it work..we had a mouat system cycling rapidly..we moved the vaporstat to the main's end..put a pressuretrol on the boiler as a high limit..set the vaporstat to 2 ounces to contol pressure at the end of the main..put a clear hose off the drain cock of the boiler and ran it up over a pipe in the ceiling so i could read the boilers pressure via water column height..it was amazing to see we had 14'' water or 1/2 pound at the boiler, 2 ounces at mains end..and had to throttle only the first couple mouat radiator valves, (this is where you would use your orifices)which are original graduated and lockable style..the system ran great..but see, we didn't necessarily orifice down every radiator...i think you will short cycle the boiler like mad if you do that...like steamhead said, some of the radiators will already be condensing steam and stealing some pressure from the main, hense the difference in boiler and end of the main pressure..and also the reason we were taught to control the boilers pressure from the mains end not the boiler..the boilers schematics show a ''high limit'' switch but also usually show an ''operating control'' which would be the vaporstat..i remember feeling quite hummbled when i asked the old guy at a plumbers meeting why thy supplied a pressuretrol with the boilers instead of a vaporstat,,he looks me up and down and says ''what stops you from putting on the right control'' ouch, that stung,,,my answer was ''ignorance i guess''..thats when he took an interest in educating me on some of the old ways...

Boilerpro_3

Hmm, Thanks for those words of wisdom!

There is always something new to learn.

Boilerpro

Unknown

Thanks, Gerry

Did you wire it in series with a low voltage thermostat, or line voltage with the limit?

I like it.

Noel

[Deleted User]

we put it

in the low voltage side...thats your idea with the clear tube that we use..thanks Noel, hope you dont mind we stole its use..

Boilerpro_3

You know, I was thinking (oh boy!)

I suspect the little risers on new boilers can start restricting the steam enough that you end up with much more pressure in the boiler than in the system. Anybody ever tested this? I bet Noel has some input.

Boilerpro

[Deleted User]

wouldn't it be fun

to have that glass boiler,,just for a week...think of the experiments that could be done...

Boilerpro_3

OH YAAAA!

Sick Minds think alike!

Boilerpro

Steamhead

That should be real easy

just drill and tap a 1/4" hole in the header, and screw in your syphon and gauge. Use a 0-5 PSI gauge on both the header and the boiler. I think Winters Instruments makes such a gauge.

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