how good is the munchkin?

rm_2

Am interested in finding out input on: installing a munchkin brand furnace and how they are and if they will cut energy costs and 2. if it will help with humidity problems and etc. Would like professional expertise?

Have 3 bed ranch/manufactured home 25 years old/we have owned it 10 yrs. Exposed basement on one half, other is regular, fans in bath and kitchen work, roof was replaced 5 yras ago but shows signes of curling already/
I am frustreated wtih the situation as we have 65 percent humidity in winter in Liv room s. side of house and 70 percent by bedroons on north side. We have some mildew/mold but not toxic on bedrooom side and lots of moisture on windows. energy bills have always been high. Now they are 200 month for elec and gas per month on budget and we currently have the original boiler/Burnham brand in home with regular radiators/

A HVAC company recoommended using a munchkin because of its efficiency and would cut costs of heating etc. and bring efficiency in; also would suggest possibly putting in hot water tank and using indirect heating method from furnace to heat it/ also if humidity continues then install an air exchanger for ventalation.

Do most of you out there feel this is a reasonable solution? generally how much saving is there, and is this a reasonable solution re: the mildew problem etc.

thanks for your help/ I need it.
rma.

Wayco Wayne_2

The Munchkin

is great, but where is this humidity coming from. Is it the unfinished half of the basement? If so is the ground covered with plastic? The Munchkin will save money especially if you put the outdoor reset kit on it so it can run at the low temps below 140 where it can condense. WW

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

jw

HRV....

I agree with wayne on the basement/ crawl combo being a prime suspect for some of the excess moisture. I have the same setup with 1/2 bsmt 1/2 crawl. I had a local insulation ctr cover the crawl dirt with heavy plastic and also glue 1" of foam to the stem walls and seal up the rim vents. I then placed a duct into the crawl area to circulate the air.

The next thing after sealing and insulating the crawlyou should do is to install an HRV, I prefer the Lifebreath brand, probably the 155MAX. Ideal installation would remove the air from the "wet" rooms and introduce the fresh air into the bedrooms and the now sealed crawl space. You will find that this will more than likely solve the moisture.

As to the Munchkin; Great unit. Will save lots for you over a "normal" boiler. Have the unit sized via a real heat loss, and not by "feel" as these units modulate and if sized correctly will run continuously most of the winter, just enough to replace the lost heat.

jw

Josh M.

Munchkins are a decent product but you might look into the weil-mclain ultra too. It has a larger heat exchanger so you aren't as limited for flow. The controls are great too giving hot water priority and outdoor reset built in for optimal efficiency. Also I have found that tech support for the munchkin is limited.

Mark Eatherton1

Josh...

I live with a Munchkin T-50, and I love it. I don't understand you comment about tech support. I've found their tech support to be among the best in the industry. Care to elaborate?

ME

Unknown

Hey Mark,,,

Why haven't you responded to my e.mail? I value your input!!! Have I upset you in any way or something?

I think the HTP Munchkin is a great product. Just not as good as the hype I've seen. The MZ is another solution. I've found it to be a more reliable one. Their tech support is up there among the best in the industry. Pete Caruso is THE MAN.

I've seen alot of posts here with Munchie problems. I hear about alot more at my local supplier. Is it the product or the installation thereof?

Gary

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

Mark Eatherton1

I value...

your value. Don't take it (make it) personal. I screwed up and let my mail box over flow for about a week when I was under the influence of pain killers (oxycodon). I missed a WHOLE bunch of e-mails. My appologies. Thats what I get for what I pay...(free box rules) Try sending it again.

MZ has a good proven product. Over priced in my opinion, but that's MHO. ANd Pete is one of the best and most experienced. He came up through the Orange GlowCore era. He's tough.

As for problems, ours have been relatively few and far between. This is a Ferrari. If you treat it like a Volkswagen, it WILL go away. As for problems, I don't like speaking for the maufacturer. I'd be yarnin' a story for you if I did.

To each is own(high efficiency boiler type). Just get one 'cause if you don't, you'll be standing there with your efficiency down on the next presentation...

ME

Josh M.

I guess that my point was that I really like the weil-mclain ultra and that it has some advantages over the munchkin. I had personal difficulty with not being able to buy the vision control without some sort of cert rather than just giving the tech support to pro's who know their controls...

lolo

Seizing a Munchkin

Hi John,
I am renovating my house and I am going to install a munchkin or trinity.
I have a couple of questions about seizing the boiler:
Heat loss calculation for this house when I will finish renovating it (next spring) is 65k btu for heat.
As the house it is right now, it calls for 135k btus (2 floors + attic and basement, 2 floors only 69k).
I think the right boiler would be a munchkin 80, that can modulate down to 25k (do you think so ??).
What would be the disadvantages of installing a 150k unit and have it heating a house that would usually need around 35-65k (2 floors - or 2 floors plus attic and basement)?
The reason I am thinking about a 150 unit is because price wise the difference is minimal, and I have more choices (not everybrand sells an 80), and I would have a boiler that is big enough if I built an addition or heated garage, or whatever.
Hotwater would be an indirect 45 gallon, as we are 3 people in the house.
Any advice as whether going with a 150 or an 80 wouldbe greatly appreciate it.
Would I expend more in gas when the 150 is running down to 45k in the summer to just make hot water? or would I be fine since this units are more efficient when they run on the low side.
thanks in advance,
lolo

Guy_5

Support

Josh,
I am sorry if we have disappointed you. The Munchkin is a great product and we do our best to resolve any issues that arise.

jw

T-80

If you have done a correct heat loss and the 65mbtu figure is correct, then I would suggest the 80M or the T-80M wall mount. The T80 with the addition of a vision pkg will give the ability to produce 110mbtu for the SuperStor indirect (with a lifetime warranty on SSU) Should give excellent service for you.

As to the trinity? I know absolutely nothing about it.

WM's ultra is ok too except higher cost and an aluminum heat exchanger.

MZ also has an aluminum HX and higher cost, but has had excellent reviews here on the wall. I have no personal experience with it.

Whichever product you use, make sure there is a local support team in place for the times you need it. This means trained service people with parts on the shelf. Mr Murphy WILL be there on your doorstep if you have an unsupported product.

Have fun and enjoy the lower gas bills.

[Deleted User]

The problem is....

Not all "pros" KNOW their controls, and this is not meant to be a negative towards you Josh. When a group of contractors met a long time ago setting the goals of HTP and the Munchkin, we asked for exclusivity to prevent another GlowCore disaster. We originally wanted certification just to purchase the boiler. Instead, exclusivity was given to the proprietary control logic, and I still think rightfully so. If you want to play, you have to pay, and MUST be certified. It is well worth the price of admission.

JMHO

ME

Dave Yates (PAH)

ME!

A GlowCore disaster?!? Tell me more(G).

I agree with your assessment regarding the Ferrari vs Volkswagen aspect.

For my part, we had a few issues with our first few Munchkin installs. The first one was our fault for not paying closer attention to the venting instructions. The second was a 199's blower deciding a bitter cold Sunday night was the right time to disintegrate.

But for the most part, I've seen issues with all of the high-tech high-efficiency equipment and that's to be expected. This ain't your old style standing pilot with thermocouple world anymore. Ahhhhhhhhhh, the good old days!

My Munchkin at home hasn't had a single problem except for a first run burp that caused an overrun on Btu's and an immediate fault code. The data logging was full of valleys and peaks as she learned my system, but now the lines ride along flat as a pancake. You can take it to the bank that I've been running the little lady through her paces. We spend a lot of time together.

Same goes for my Burnham Revolution, which tossed its smart valve right after the warranty ran out. I replaced it with the upgrade kit and narry a problem has occured since then. Unless I'm way off my mark, Mark, big blue is working on something in their test labs right now that's gonna knock off a few socks.

The MZ's we have installed demanded close attention in setting up, but haven't given a moment's problem since the day we first fired them off. The price is a tad higher, but there's also more components under the hood like an expansion tank and circulator. Now, if they only modulated.......

I traveled an orange road with a condensing nightmare a number of years ago. It's a wonder I was willing to even look at another condensing boiler!

In a decade or two, we'll look back on this time period as being similar to the Wright Brothers first flight. In such an amazingly short time period, their efforts led to having a man on the moon (summer of 1969). Today I read that a manned flight is in the works for Mars. I can't imagine a more exciting time to be alive and working in the hydronics trade.



To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

lolo

thank you John,
can you explain a bit more about the vision pkg?
is it from the same company? I cannot find anything about it. They list the t80 as being able to go lower: 17k btu, but not higher.
That's actually the one I had in mind. The problem being that they say they are backorder, and nobody really knows when they are comming.
My local dealer says the end of January, but who knows.
If you know of anyone who has one hanging around let me know.
My local dealer carrys the munchknin, but not the trinity, so I would be more comfortable, that way.

Mark Hunt

Vision 1


The Vision 1 package allows you to program the boiler according to outdoor temps. You can reset the boiler according to what the actual requirement is and the boiler will modulate accordingly.

You will not find info on it at HTP's site unless you are a factory trained Vision contractor.

They are standard equipment on every Munchkin we install.

Hope this helps.

Mark H


To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

jw

Will go higher w/ vision

T-80 with the vision1 kit, supplied as an option installed by a certified contractor, will allow the T-80 to make hot water at 110mbtu. It wll also give the boiler internal outdoor reset. If you have to wait for one? Sounds like you won't be ready till spring anyway. Make sure you get the SuperStor indirect with it. Fastest hot water and best temperature control as it uses a thermistor to tell the boiler what it needs.

jw

lolo

I am confuse

thank you John, thank you Mark,
So you mean it won't modulate without the vision pkg?
or is it just an outdoor reset+dhw priority control?

Uhmm..it is a litle difficult for me to trust a company that will be there when I need it but: ...uhm they don't know when their boilers will be available, their t80 seems to go up to 110 with a kit, but it is not printed anywhere. And then there is this misterious kit that I should install in my house but I am not supposed to get any information about it???
Is there any other control besides this misterious vision pkg, to add outdoor reset and dhw priority to the munchkin??
thanks for your answers,
but I think the trinity comes with outdoor reset+dhw priority built in standar. Or does this vision or other kit add anything else???

jw

Available......

If the contractor orders it. The delivery time from the factory at present is 6 weeks out. In high demand.

The Vision kit consists of some wiring harnesses and two sensors for DHW and outdoor reset. Main thing with Vision is that the installer must be trained by the factory so it does not get screwed up by some slug "installer" (at least that is the theory!)

All munchkins modulate right out of the box, with or without the vision upgrade. They just have one setpoint temp as delivered.

Please use whatever you are comfortable with. I am comfortable with munchkin. Have installed many and now represent the company in the MT. I have no vested interest in your buying a munchkin as I can almost guarantee you don't live in MT!! You asked for input, I offered my best shot. Now you need to make a decision, eh? Just keep in mind that you need to have some trust in the abilities of your contractor as well. This is about half the equation.

jw

GEO_3

The Munchkin is a great product and should not be sold to everyone with a Bernz a matic. HTP is right in protecting its product. Wouldn't want it to go the way of the Paloma Pak.

Mark Hunt

JOHN!!!!!!!!!!


PLEASE LET ME COME WORK IN MONTANA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Montana is the place I want to be.

"I fly fish, therefor, I am"

Missouri, Gallatin, Jefferson, etc...........

Mark H


To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

heatboy

Certification.

I'm not a big fan of having to be "certified" to sell any piece of equipment. I remenber wasting time and money to become certified to sell the GlowCore way back when. The only thing it did was certify that I had enough common sense (my little voice) to never sell it due to it's design. I don't think I will ever pay to become certified to install anything again.

I am not "certified" to sell the Vitodens, which is the most sophisticated boiler I have worked with. I don't think that means I can't install it correctly. I am traveling to Viessmann next week for some training on it since there is a steep learning curve, at least for this somewhat dim bulb, but it won't make me certified to install it.

hb

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

Unknown

Heatboy, where are you going

for Viessmann training next week? Is it in Warwick, RI if so maybe we can hook up. Give me a call 401-437-0557.

jw

Don't see why not?

Mark;

I'm in the Kalispell (NW) area. I am looking for a business associate in the rep business.

jw

hr

Certified or factory trained?

no there's a thin line

Or is is the dollars that would change you mind! If Viessmann used the "C" word would you still attend? If you are taking time from work and driving for training, it is costing you. A wise investment, no doubt.u

Seriously though, I think a lot of the odd questions being asked here about installations, pumping, venting, etc in regards to high efficiency equipment would go away if those installers AND their employees took the time to get factory trained, or certified, depending on your word choice.

Seems some installers just want to pound em in like they have with cast iron boilers all their lives. Then ask foolish questions and bad mouth the product when things don't work correctly.

a little knowledge goes a long way with higher tech equipment.

I suspect that's why you are traveling, to increase yours.

hot rod

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

Unknown

Monitor MZ's HX is stainless steel

John,

You are mistaken about the Monitor MZ heat exchanger.
It is made of high grade stainless steel.

No modulating units yet available in the US yet :-(

Gary

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

heatboy

If it were any other time of year.........

I would love to spend some time, Timmie. I would like to go through your class on gas during one of these trips to Warwick. Unfortunately, with this weather, I'm leaving after work to make the 4.5 hour trip and then leaving right after to get home at a decent time.

How about Spring?

hb

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

heatboy

Training is essential.

That's why I'm doing the banzai run to Viessmann in the middle of the Winter. There is much to know about these specialized pieces of equipment. My reps or wholesalers are no help if I have a questions.

One thing I have learned over the years is that I create most of my own issues with equipment ;-0 Very seldom is it the equipment that is at fault. Simple things like the coding on the Vitodens can cause the system not to work if the wrong button is pushed or incorrect coding is done. Want to know how I know (g)?

I just don't like the idea of not being able to have access to something because I haven't been certified to install it. It's not rocket science, you know. Even for me.

hb

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

Unknown

No problem, we can get

together when we can sit and look out at the ocean and not freeze to death.

Believe it or not I am right here near the Viessman folks and have not had a chance to get over there. It is one of the things I plan to do.

Unknown

Vision Cert.

What's it take to get HTP to sell me their new Vision control anyway?

Viessmann, Buderus and Tekmar to name just a few, have some pretty sophisticated control platforms out there. But, I bet their tech service departments are flooded with calls from knuckleheads use to "slamming CI boilers in."

I don't think it's wise that HTP is charging Contractors for their factory authorization to sell their product. If they want to sell their best wares, they should provide the training free of charge. Let the sale of the control and related boiler and equipment finance the training sessions.

What makes this control so special anyway? It can't be any more sophisticated than the Vitodens control?

I'll be a student in Viessmann Acadamy next week and It's on them. I'll repay the favor many times over if I like what I see. Thats how it should work.

Gary

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

radiantdave

I APPLAUD THAT

YOU ARE RIGHT WARD FLEX CSP REQUIRES ACERTIFICATION CLASS AND A CARD TO PURCHASE THERE GAS FLEX BECAUSE WE WOULD NOT WANT JUST ANY BODY USEING IT WHY SHOULD WE EXPECT HTP TO RISK TARNISH OF THERE PRODUCTS NAME DUE TO UNDEREDUCATION VEISSMAN OFFERS TRAINING BUT THEY MAKE THE INFO SO VAIG THAT YOU WOULDNT DARE INSTALL IT WITHOUT SOMEONE TO HOLD YOUR HAND NOTHING IN LIFE IS FREE ESPECIALLY EDUCATION BEWARE FREEBIES AS THEY OFTEN TURN OUT TO BE MORE SALES HYPE THAN TRAINING WHAT I GOT FROM HTP WAS TRAINING NOT SALES SMOKE I HOPE THEY GET THE SAME FOR FREE FROM THE OTHER GUYS.

hr

But Gary

Don't ya think the cost of that "free" Viessmann training could be covered in the $5,000.00 sticker price of the unit.

Trust me Viessmann didn't get to where they are by giving every contrator freebies And I'll bet there is a marketing spin included. Nothing wrong with that, either.

In my opinion training should cost. It makes it a more valuable asset. Besides most teachers are underpaid IMHO

Regardless, I think we all agree the training is the key to sucessful radiant installations, and the future, and sucess of radiant heating industry.

To my thinking certification goes beyond "training" by requiring testing to assure the knowledge "locked in" Doesn't prove you will be an expert heating tech, or designer, but it does indicate if you understand the material you tested on.

That's what I like about the RPA certification and tough gradeing. First you take ME's Radiant class (training) then you test to recieve the certification.

How else would you know if the training was on target? Or which parts of the training need to be adjusted. Everybody bobs their heat in agreement during the class

The RPA exam results sure do show a pattern and indicate where the majority of the test takers are confused. That gives the teacher a clear picture of what works and what doesn't.

Just my two marks, I mean cents

hot rod

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

Mark Hunt

Charging?

Who got charged?

I didn't.

The thing that impressed me the most about my trip to Viessmann was their professionalism. I told them that I installed Munchkins, and they simply pointed out where their equipment differed from HTP's.

No ego trips, no elitism, just what they did differently.

I did not go to HTP's vision class to get certified, I went to get AUTHORIZED. I had to learn about the control before I went around slapping them in. I've seen quite a few posts here about problems with the Munchkin that had NOTHING to do with the Munchkin but were problems with the installation.

HB said it himself, he's going back to learn more about the Vitodens, I am going to as well.

I would bet that if the Vitodens were less money, I would see as many if not more posts complaining about them. Not because the unit is faulty, but because someone who did not get trained/certified/authorized etc........ was allowed to play with one.

Mark H

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

heatboy

Could you elaborate.....

on what was vague about Viessmann's training?

hb

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

Troy_3

Munchkin

Munchkin has been my boiler of choice for 2 1/2 years and I am very impressed. I have also installed Vitodens and it is a fine piece of equipment. I have been to Viessmann training 5 times. It is very good. I do feel that they could double the value to the tech if the sales pitch was saved for the sales course. I figure 60% of every training is hype. Very important but to a tech-give me hands on. I'm already sold that's why I'm here! I wish every boiler required certified installers and they meant it. I see too much misinstalled equipment that is labeled crap because the trunk slammer that put it in doesn't have a clue.

rm_2

back to recommendation

Not to switch topics but re: excess humdiity, mildew and large eating bills in my house--currently hhave a burnham boiler about 25 years old/contractor recommends putting in a munchkin for savings and then possibly air exchanger Would you do so to 1. help with humidity 2. reduce costs on bills Thank you

Also do feel the money spent increases value of a home?
thanks from cold WI.
rmames

jerry scharf

on mold amd moisture

I'm not an expert, but I've been forced to do a bunch of learning on this.My wife has terrible mold allergies and I have just finished the design of a remodel to deal with many of these issues.

First, you need moisture to have mold! You will always have spored and you will always have some kind of fod source, so water becomes the key for controlling mold. You have to focus on keeping any external moisture out and getting rid of all the excess created moisture.

Make sure you have well sized humidity operated fans in every bath, laundry, kitchen, etc. Make sure these all vent to the outside (roof or walls) directly. These will all produce moisture during normal use. IMO, depending on someone to turn the fan on is a sure way to get excess moisture. We had an interesting mold growth under our microwave oven, all that steam was condensing on the counter...

Make sure that your vapor barriers are intact and that as much as possible there is no leaks from the interior air to the insulation (we're going with corbond to avoid this.) Make sure you don't have things overpressuring the house to force air into the insulation. If you want to do heat recovery veltilation, get the ERV type that also addresses moisture.

IMO, hydronic/steam heat is a much better way to go and removes a whole set of problems that come with pumping air around. There is no question that it improves the comfort. Resale value is much more about local customs and opinions. A competent local real estate agent (some do exist) can tell you what they would guess the value increase would be. With the increasing concerns about Indoor Air Quality, I think this will be worth more in 5-10 years than it is today.

hope this helps
jerry