Radiantec and Polaris, any experience or thoughts

Scot Smyth

I am putting radiant heat into an ICF house with slab on grade. Radiantec, a radiant heat design and supply house recommends simpler and less costly system than the local radiant heat installers. Any experience with Radiantec and Polaris water heaters that they are recommending?

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Just some of the problems frequently reported here...

1) Their "preferred" method combines domestic and space heating water in the same system. This is a known health hazard and is not allowed in some jurisdictions. Even where allowed, it is sincerely not a good idea.

2) Their tubing in of the "non-barrier" variety. Non-barrier tube allows oxygen to enter the system through the tube wall. The oxygen entering the system deteriorates ferrous components. This effect is temperature-dependent and increases with temperature. Their systems typically operate at a higher temperature than many other radiant systems.

3) As an internet-type company you never really see a person. Much is up to the buyer who must supply good and accurate information. You then must have faith that whoever picks the components for your system has made a good and faithful heat loss calculation and sized everything properly for your location.

4) Consumers who have reported problems here generally say that the company offers very little in the way of help if/when things don't work like they say they should. They will likely say that the problems are "beyond their control".

5) The use of a water heater as a boiler is rather contentious topic. Some jurisdictions will not allow this. While costing more initially, a true boiler will likely give longer and more efficient service.

I know that cost is almost always an issue, but there really are contractors who will work with you to keep costs down as much as possible while still producing a quality system.

Unknown

The chief difference

between a water heating appliance and a space heating appliance, is that space heating appliances run many hours of the day versus minutes for a water heater.

Any appliance used for heating runs long enough and often enough that ANY venting problem can cause SERIOUS health problems right away on the night or day that the problem occurs. Water heaters shut off after a much shorter period of time, and run much less often.

Space heating appliances have safety devices (blocked vent safety switch, flame roll out fuse) to save lives in the event of a problem where flue gasses vent into the living space.

Noel

hr

In regards to

the Polaris. I have used quite a few of these and they actually work well as a radiant heat source. They have plenty of pressure and temperature safeties included, and additional LWC or relief valves can be added for even morepiece of mind, imo.

First off, they may not be approved in your area for closed loop use. Check with the local code officials. Some areas insist on ASME approved equipment.

I get different reports as to IF they are still under warranty from the manufacture if used as a stand alone, sealed radiant heat source. If you use it that way ask for a letter from the MANUFACTURE as to is approved use.

I suspect this is why they get designed and speced as combined DHW/ Radiant heat units from some radiant company.

I would suggest that it be installed by a contractor that has experience with the dos and don't of that unit.

Venting and fuel piping should be installed by a licensed, experienced contractor, I feel.

You're playing with fire, remember

You might shop for a local heating contractor, or engineer to do a heat loss and make sure the package you buy can cover you load. I mean the builing load

Better to know that on the front end!

hot rod

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GEO_3

I have used the Polaris with fan coils and they work fine. Probably one of the most efficient set ups out there. Can't say the same about their commercial unit though. They are also overpriced.

kevin coppinger_4

when it comes to....

putting tubing in a slab you really only have 1 chance to do it right. A local contractor you can get,local references and and see the job 1st hand. Not so w/ the Vt. company...Yes the local contractor might be more but you can deal w/ that person face to face and build a working relationship w/ him. Ask to seee some jobs and get it done right the 1st time...kpc

John Ruhnke1

Radiantec threatened to sue me.............

Radiantec theatened to sue me if I told the truth about a job that was being done by a do it your selfer. They hired a lawyer to send me a letter. I thought this was Amereica you know land of the free? Radiantec gave this person a lot of advise that I disagreed with. I did not agree with any of the installation methods. The installation methods contridicted most methods listed by the RPA and other major manufacturers and in my opinion as a certified installer and designer of radiant systems, the job was not going to work right.

Oh my god I hope they don't go and drag me into court for saying this, but if I say nothing then I don't have any freedom of speach and I am willing to fight for my rights and protect the integrity of everyone working in the field of radiant heating. Otherwise I could never live with myself

JR

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Mark Eatherton1

John...

I will stand behind you. 100%

Mark Eatherton

Steve Ebels

Don't do it!!!

Just flat out don't do it. Radiant heating is not in the same realm as particle physics but neither is it something everyone can/should do. I have no idea what you're machanical abilities are so I won't belabor that point. What I will say is that a radiant heating installation is a VERY hands on labor intensive project. If you have not done this before, or seen it done, it is hard to visualize the amount of time you will spend at it.

As far as the company from Vermont, or any other over the net company goes, I have seen a whole truckload of problems. The biggest thing that I see is that there is no-one physically at your jobsite to spot problems before they happen. Believe me they will. I have never yet had a job go 100% as planned. When problems arise the internet companies are out of your reach and you have no recourse.

My advice would be for you to find a contractor that will:

A. Do a real heat loss calculation for you

B. Do a detailed design layout

C. Recommend and/or procure equipment that he can properly set up and service.

D. Let you and coach you through the installation if you want to save some labor $$$$.

I have done this many times for clients who want a radiant system but don't have or don't want to spend the bucks for a turnkey job. It may take a little looking but we are out here.

The path you are looking at now leads directly to perdition in a lot of cases that I have seen.

You of course are spending your money and it is, as John mentioned, a free country, so you can spend it where and how you wish. I just get upset when some telephone yes man tells you or anyone else everything will be hunky-dory, piece of cake and there's more to it than that. I hate it when a poorly performing radiant system gives a black eye to radiant heat in general.

Sorry to sound kinda wrathy but I've seen way more problems than I would call normal with these systems.

allenh

Question about point #2. Would that kind of tubing clog a flat pack heat exchanger? We swapped out air eliminator today and it was covered in a rust colored gunk. Now we are wondering where that came from.? And we are guessing the pex tubing.

kevin coppinger_4

well it wouldn't

be from the PEX tubing directly....if you have ferrous components in the system AND you don't have barrier tubing in the system , the system will rust because the oxygen will come through the tube. Naturally it would show up in the air removal part or a strainer or a pump impeller....kpc

allenh

flat pack heat exchanger questions

How long are they supposed to last? And how often do they get clogged up with city water? Can they be backflushed successfully?

TIA.

Rudy

Polaris

Questions for you, Scot... What's your climate like? Have you already poured your slab? What kind of tube spacing did this company recommend? Open or closed loop system?

kevin coppinger_4

I am not sure...

aa to how long one is supposed to last...lots of factors to play into that...They can plug up. That is one reason I don't like them, tiny passages. I prefer the Maxiflow type that weil-Mclain and triangle tube/phase3 makes.You could try to flush one out w/ an acid wash and pony pump I have never tried w/ one, again tiny passages if it is plugged solid forget it and get a new HX. kpc

Dave Yates (PAH)

2nd year law student

A 2nd year law student contacted me last week for help on a position paper they are writing about prosecuting for community acquired legionellosis.

It's interesting that this subject has appeared on the radar screen for law school students. Awareness of the issue is growing.

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builderwest

Polaris is garbage

I have used Radiantec's system on 9 homes, they are great to work with but the Polaris water heater is over priced garbage. I have had 3 tanks leak within a year and need to be replaced, but they wont pay for anything but the tank. This is after I jumped through hoops and replaced every part on the water heater that they finally give in.

Go with a boiler instead, it's less money and more reliable.

Homeowners aren't too happy when the water heater for their domestic water and radiant heat goes out and it takes a couple of days to get a new unit shipped.

Gordy

So

You like open radiant systems?

Weezbo

2013...

Scot ,

well, the radiant heat problems that used to show up here on the wall almost daily usually started out,

"i have this new radiant floor system i installed that i got on line from Radiant tech....."

The wall has changed over the years and Dan sunk quite a bit of time and effort into keeping up with the times on the internet site changes , one minor technicality is our archives which we all held in our computers ,not on carbonite, have taken some serious beatings by the kids with no job ,...who like to play Dr. Destructo when they get home from school and dream up new ways to crash netizens computers and the like ..

so many many of those threads by the OP's back then are probably anywhere other than where we can direct you to read these posts for yourself.

For the most part , this was not that and, whatever it was supposed to be,... was something else.

i hope that helps answer the first question about experience ... most installs for radiant heat here in "Balmy "down town North Pole ,Alaska , tend to be from oil fired boilers and the potable water is one system and the heating another . The way we accomplish that, is with double wall heat exchangers , for the most part.

Polaris here means ...Polaris Propane fired water heaters and i have installed quite a few and have replaced quite a few , for whatever the reason no one has called me to say the ,.. YOUR Polaris is not doing this or that ,... so, i figure that must be because, they tend to be reliable when installed .

To day i rolled in 4 zones of half inch pex with two hundred and ten foot lengths two lengths to a zone , with 23 foot run outs in 3/4 pex , back to where i am hoping the parts for a Rehau pro balance manifold will be available to tie them into ,..with some one inch Wirsbo and Rehau. run back to the boiler. quite a bit of effort goes into using the various parts and pieces tools and instruments , there is a great deal of consideration that goes into it , ,as well as experience in order to make it all come together . Tomorrow morning, at ten a.m. , i have an inspection for the 1680 lineal feet of in-floor tubing and the placement of thermostats and headers and individual stations .

Many home owners have tried to do this stuff i do because it looks easy when someone else is doing it so they figure , 'i can do this...' ,' i don't need license insurance and bonding and a head filled with flow rates c v Delta T Delta P modulating condensing piping and control selections .... ' , and so they give it a go ...usually banging in non barrier with ferrous circs out of on demand water heaters or whatever, using larger tubing in the floor, at considerably wider spacing and pipe arrangements around the perimeter , with little or no , what i call , "communication between the zones " ,to aid in times of freezups and the like and experience a rather different outcome some morning when they drive away from the garage with the door open .... where upon one of my friends or i may get a call where something went wrong and now they want to know how to fix it.

There are various strategies for controlling the heat and without going too far a field i' d say have found the system that they installed did not happen to have much time burned in the design of their system for possible or even likely eventualities ...which sorta ends up with unusable heating systems that are beyond salvaging ...quite often we then offer things like radiant panels or simple convective baseboard as the way that they can get heat the quickest .

In the past , some folks have thought nah ,...I am going "Electric" because of the costs of the electric base board usually they did not realize that means electrical wiring ,load calcs and the like also , and after leaping that hurdle the "Ownership " was not quite what they expected , over time, as the cost is rather severe for electricity here.

Long time ago, ... people wanting "Cheap" heat , went with an oil fired Bock water heater , ran the hot water around the house , almost like a mono flow system and shoved in baseboard connected to the potable Hot water line... that was all well and good "Until........., then , well they dashed out and got a boiler slammed it in hooking the base boards to it and thinning out the hot water take offs for the bock and then things were ok again , " Until...... fuel oil prices are not 30 cent a gallon and at 4.00 they are pretty sure something better Must be on the horizon, so we go there bang in some primary secondary adjust temp and flows add this and that ..Yay! things are going better again ,...Maybe we can get Gas Modulation and pick up some solar water heating ... it is like that , over the decades folks keep going for the best return on their investments . i think that is what appeals having a chance to do something that is sorta spendy up front costs to save money...anybody can do it. why i could hire a monkey to do this stuff..this is easy ...

I kind of think that some of the problem stems from going on the sound advise of your sheetrocker or painter who may not have had the chance to do all kinds of work with someone who worked with him to make it all come together . The Painter or sheetrocker that has will tell you that each tradesman with whom he works is skilled at what they do and would steer you in the direction of having a local contractor they know to help you in your endeavours,

i hope that helps ,

Weezbo

*~//:)